AAA teams for next season

[Beer Leaguer]

All SoCal teams are feeder programs for Ducks and Kings and they have the votes on the CAHA board.

[lcadad]

All SoCal teams are feeder programs for Ducks and Kings and they have the votes on the CAHA board.

While the net effect of the current rules certainly benefit the Ducks and Kings as you stated, at least in SoCal, Every member club has a vote.  The current CAHA board has heavy NorCal representation.  Unfortunately, even when there have been contentious issues some of the member clubs don't participate or vote.

[Beer Leaguer]

NorCal=Sharks

[BladesofSteel66]

Ugh...


I might have to draw a picture for some people to understand how player development works and what talent, potential, and the "ceiling" concept.  Maybe I will use numbers for now:


I will just use ONE age group for an example. 


CAHA only allows (typically) for 50 11UAAA players.  Kids with similar skill level.  As players grow and mature and even improve during a season, some will improve and excel at a rate faster than others.  Then there will be a group that is outside of the chosen 50 players who play AA or A etc.  How do you anticipate or measure the potential for skill improvement or max out a players ceiling of potential if they do not get the opportunity to develop on the same curve/path as the chosen 50?


What I am saying is that I/anyone could personally hand-pick 50 players not 11UAAA in this state and put together an ADDITIONAL three EQUALLY competitive teams AAA teams.  (That is essentially what the system allows ONLY the Ducks/Kings to do.)  I guarantee it.  Equally, that would enhance and grow the number of AAA level, caliber players all challenging to get better meaning CA will have more players training at those higher levels. 


The problem with this dream world?  No one has a private jet to fly these additional players all over the state back and forth to practice.  In other words, offer more opportunities evenly spread out locally.  Grow the game at the highest skill level.  The system now LIMITS opportunity and player development.   


A 4 star player might never make the top 50 for the big 3, but what if that player got to train on a team of AAA 5 star players...  I bet you would make another 5 STAR PLAYER!!! 
What if that 4 star player is limited to playing on his team with 3 and 4 star players.  Together, there is a chance one might become a 5 star, but more likely these players will plateau and hit a lower ceiling than they actually had potential for achieving. 

[lcadad]

You seem to be the only person who missed the argument and took it literally.

Says the guy who constantly puts words in my mouth and then proceeds to make straw man arguments.

You keep stating this, but never provide anything to back it up, so I will continue to ignore your claims to that effect.

And I understood full well what you wrote and the exaggerated point you were trying to make. I thought it was a weak argument.  I think it's you who has actually misunderstood my argument from jump street.

People are advocating for more AAA hockey teams and for them to be closer to their homes. And I wish unicorns existed too. The fact is, we were all dealt a hand, but we chose to sit at the table. (The people with daughters who play hockey have it really hard.)

People are advocating for removing the restrictions that make it impossible for there to be more teams.  In the past there were more teams, and the restrictive rules have shrunk the pool.

Many people seem to be against a system that filters kids to a few programs with AAA hockey. It works in Texas. It works in Chicago. If you think that's unfair, fine. I think having just a few AAA teams in the state would be better than adding another team that rivals the Sharks. I don't think having a team like Meijer AAA hockey club is good for anyone. I think the Sharks would have benefited from playing AA this season. They would have played more games, been more competitive and had more fun.

What was stopping the Sharks from playing AA though?  Oh yeah, the CAHA system you keep defending.  Neither Chicago (a city btw) nor Texas are anything like California.  There are also many other highly successful regions that get along fine without rules limiting AAA to 3 teams in the entire state.  Nice touch bringing up Meijer '06 
 

And lastly, if your kid is dominating AA, there will be AAA teams who want them. I'm sorry if that club isn't close to your house. I want kids to earn their AAA spot, not turn AAA into participation trophies because they think it will magically lead to their kid's improvement and a college scholarship.

Musical chairs is a shitty game, even at a kids birthday party.  In California AA is not a feeder program for AAA.  It is an alternative system that is unusually full of kids who are very capable of playing AAA.  The sad thing to me is that so many people see that this lack of opportunity for AAA teams damages the entire system.  The result is that lots of people move their kids out of state which waters down the CAHA system across the board.     

[Fourthliner]

You keep stating this, but never provide anything to back it up, so I will continue to ignore your claims to that effect.

Feel free to go back several pages and read again. I'm not going to do the work for you.

There are also many other highly successful regions that get along fine without rules limiting AAA to 3 teams in the entire state.  Nice touch bringing up Meijer '06   

Yeah, usually the states where there are a lot more kids playing hockey and plenty of rinks to choose from.


Also, what's wrong with bringing up Meijer? They're a AAA team. Are you suggesting they aren't? That they shouldn't be playing AAA?

In California AA is not a feeder program for AAA.  It is an alternative system that is unusually full of kids who are very capable of playing AAA. 

If you truly believe this, we will just have to agree to disagree. Even though that's totally wrong.

[JackBender]

Just so we're all on the same page... Chicago isn't a state. The Chicagoland area, however, is 10,857 square miles with a population of 9.5M. They have 4 AAA teams (TI, Fury, Mission, CYA).


By comparison, Southern California is 56,505 square miles with a population of 24.1M. For next season, we will have 4 AAA teams at 06 (Kings, Ducks, ID, Gulls).


Texas has 6,321 registered USA Hockey members under the age of 18... while California has 15,468.


The world of youth hockey in SoCal will be fine with a bit more competition at the top.  And if next season is a blazing disaster at 06, we can always go back to the draconian days of 3 teams for an area of 163,696 square miles and population of 40M.


That said, great teams can still exist. No one said they couldn't. Teams don't have to be diluted of talent. No one dictated they needed to be. CAHA merely offered more opportunity at 06. I think that's good for everyone. So, now, in a more competitive environment, it's up to the clubs to recruit the best team they can and offer something the other clubs can't. People want choices, and CAHA is beginning to support that.

[notTHATdad]

Ah, Calhockey... you will never disappoint me.


Of all the things I've read in this (often interesting and enjoyable) thread, this is the one that is the most audaciously hilarious "What I am saying is that I/anyone could personally hand-pick 50 players not 11UAAA in this state and put together an ADDITIONAL three EQUALLY competitive teams AAA teams."  ... offered completely without evidence, like it should just be assumed.


I know nothing about the 11's, but a few things to consider...
- The 04 Jr Kings lost 10 players this year (for a lot of reasons, one contributor no doubt being some issues you may have read in the press last year, and because a couple are playing up at 16's.) I will assume they picked up the best AA players they could get. They went from MHR in the 20's to #71. So much for "Anyone can find 3 more teams of equally competitive AAA players!"  Given the fact that AAA teams like the Kings would expect to turn over %15-%25 of the kids any year anyways, you are talking about finding an additional 5 or 6 kids at the same level. And they failed at staying at the same level competitiveness. In frigging LA.


- A couple of years ago the Jr Sharks DID drop one of their AAA teams (at the time 14s I believe) to AA. As you can imagine, the parents hated it, it was controversial, there was an exodus, etc.  So, it can happen. They have done it. It's problematic though and no club drops levels lightly. As I've mentioned, every club has bad years.


- In the case of the 06 Jr Sharks, I believe they were hit mid season a year or two with an exodus which caused a lot of problems, but I have no inside info. All clubs get faced with the decision occasionally to either drop or muscle through a bad year, and there is no easy answer. They are MHR #71 too - ironically just like the Kings 04's. Are they competitive in CA? No, and the rest of their record is pretty bad too. But the CA games are 6 games out of a schedule of 35 or 40 travel games. Judging a CA AAA team based solely on CA results is silly.


- The other repeated assertion is that somehow putting AA players on AAA teams in the CA system will 'develop' them. Again, offered with no evidence, while a number of actual AAA parents have said how they have seen that tried and really, really NOT work. Personally, everything I've seen is that, though all teams have better and worse players, playing a kid beyond their abilities hurts them and the team - it makes for a miserable year with no development. And AAA is very, very different than AA in ways that honestly a lot of AA parents don't see. And again, I'll point out that %15-%25 turnover DOES happen, every year, and those kids are often (but not always) coming up from AA. The best of the AA's, those ready to step up, are grabbed. The time for your kid to prove they are a AAA player is tryouts. They happen every year. The coaches have a lot more experience picking the right kids out than the parents.


My sense is that CAHA is doing the right thing here. For clubs that have a feeder area, play at every level, and have shown stability, they are giving them AAA teams with few questions asked, for the sake of that stability. Right now that is the Sharks, Ducks, and Kings. Then for other exceptional situations where an org can show a 'real' roster, they are doing that as a one-year-one-off. And frankly that has been offered for at least a year or two - witness the GSE North AAA attempt that was abandoned by GSE themselves. CAHA bent over backwards in that instance.


And who knows, maybe some of those one-offs become part of the set of stable teams that have fewer questions asked. That would be great - we all want more actual AAA orgs and teams. But being a stable AAA org takes a track record.


It's very hard not to see a lot of this as 'Butt-hurt AA parents who's little Johnny's didn't make AAA again'. ;-)

[Strawman]

"Many people seem to be against a system that filters kids to a few programs with AAA hockey. It works in Texas. It works in Chicago. If you think that's unfair, fine. I think having just a few AAA teams in the state would be better than adding another team that rivals the Sharks. I don't think having a team like Meijer AAA hockey club is good for anyone. I think the Sharks would have benefited from playing AA this season. They would have played more games, been more competitive and had more fun. And lastly, if your kid is dominating AA, there will be AAA teams who want them. I'm sorry if that club isn't close to your house. I want kids to earn their AAA spot, not turn AAA into participation trophies because they think it will magically lead to their kid's improvement and a college scholarship."




I think by "Chicago" you probably meant "Illinois."  Anyone who thinks the AAA system works well in Illinois has no clue what they're talking about.  Their system makes ours look really well-run.

[Knuckle Puck]

rewind to 2014-15, back in the days when caha did not impose restrictions on who could field aaa teams. there were 28% fewer kids playing in california according to usa hockey, yet there were 26% *more* aaa teams than today.  for those bad at math, that means today we have a lot more kids, but a lot fewer aaa slots for them.

wave, gulls, ochc, titans, wildcats and avalanche each had teams at one or more of the 14aaa/16aaa/18aaa levels. none of those teams were abjectly terrible.  all the teams travelled back east less, because they had more local games.  aaa cost less for everybody.

most important thing -- *all* of the 14aaa/16aaa/18aaa teams (with titans 16 being the lone exception) rostered *multiple* kids who have since advanced to ncaa d1, d3, and/or major junior. all of them! even gulls! dozens more kids still playing at college acha level. many of the kids who have advanced were not viewed as "superstars" at the time, and may not have developed the same way if they had only two club options at 14/16/18.

more teams = more development opportunities = more kids advancing. the evidence is there for anyone who cares to look for it. why is this so hard to understand?

[BladesofSteel66]

Raise your hand if you were a full scholarship D-1 athlete.  Oh, ok.  If you want "evidence" and full APA documentation for sources, are you offering a CEP Lv 5 also?  Last place I had to post sources on a board post, I earned another throwaway Master's degree.  If you know, you know.  If not, stay in your bubble.   
My #1 goal: hope my kids don't live in my basement in a few years as "adults" because they didn't make the local 3v3 mall tournament team.

[TheFourthA]

The “more AAA team means less travel” argument only works if the current and prospective AAA teams provide an equivalent level of competition.  The system already doesn’t provide that - again, the Kings and Sharks actually agreed to have a tournament game count as a CAHA game so they could avoid playing each other.  No one will argue that games against the Sharks are a substitute for top end East and Mid West competition. CCM Bauer Chicago not putting Dogs into its top division is strong evidence that the Dogs aren’t there yet, either.  And I haven’t heard anyone argue that the Gulls project to be.

[notTHATdad]

Ugh...

A 4 star player might never make the top 50 for the big 3, but what if that player got to train on a team of AAA 5 star players...  I bet you would make another 5 STAR PLAYER!!! 
What if that 4 star player is limited to playing on his team with 3 and 4 star players.  Together, there is a chance one might become a 5 star, but more likely these players will plateau and hit a lower ceiling than they actually had potential for achieving.

Nice thought, but that's just not how it works. In practice, that 4 star player is going to :


- Play on the third line. At best. Where on most AAA teams he's going to get half the ice time that he would on the AA team.
- Not get PP or PK time.
- Be last up on the drills as the coach focuses on the top 2 lines.
- Potentially be ridiculed by his teammates. Never get passed to ("because that guy can't take a pass").
- Not get the fundamentals training he needs because everyone else is past him.
- Basically feel like crap the whole year.
- Fall further behind

And after all that, there is a good chance that they simply won't make it. Because they aren't big enough, or strong enough, or have enough hockey sense, which is the biggest difference between AA and AAA. They will be part of that %20 turn over next year.

Compare that to:
- Being on the first line of an AA team.
- Getting more ice time than anyone else
- Being on PK, PP, maybe both
- Getting more drill time
- Getting more coach focus
- Spending the saved money on private coaching
- Feeling like a star.


Which seems like a better development environment? Unless your kid is bored or not learning anything because they are just that good, if they are an AA player, they will develop better on an AA team. On the other hand, if they are that far above everyone else, why aren't they getting picked for AAA? Examine that.


The crazy thing I see here is people thinking somehow that 'adding an A' will change things. As far as I can tell, the complaints are about wanting the same AA coaches and organizations to have AAA teams. How would that change anything apart from making everything more expensive? Most of these teams aren't going to end up in Tier1Elite, where the rest of the western AAA teams play, so what tournaments are they going to be in? All in Canada? All east coast? That sounds crazy expensive to me.


There was a good argument a few yeas ago with the 03/04 Bears that they needed better competition. Is there really such a standout team anywhere in AA now?


In the last few years Socal AAA teams have had Norcal players commute. They've had Norcal players move and billet. One team had multiple pieces of their roster living in Nashville and just showing up for tournaments. Do you think they would do that if a plethora of 'obvious AAA' players were lying around in AA?


If your kid is in AA, there is a reason your kid was not picked for AAA. Stop whining and work on that. Prove them all wrong.  Next year, get picked. Unless your kid is in the top 1-3 of your AA team, they have a lot of work to do. The kids that are AAA ready stand out. You will see them at the top of the scoring charts. They will posses the puck more than anyone else on their team. They will typically have developed earlier, and be larger and faster.


Sorry. That's the hard truth. And as Dads and Moms we have very little influence on any of it.

[trans4761]

Raise your hand if you were a full scholarship D-1 athlete.  Oh, ok.  If you want "evidence" and full APA documentation for sources, are you offering a CEP Lv 5 also?  Last place I had to post sources on a board post, I earned another throwaway Master's degree.  If you know, you know.  If not, stay in your bubble.   

My #1 goal: hope my kids don't live in my basement in a few years as "adults" because they didn't make the local 3v3 mall tournament team.

You have a basement ?

[area51]

Raise your hand if you were a full scholarship D-1 athlete.  Oh, ok.  If you want "evidence" and full APA documentation for sources, are you offering a CEP Lv 5 also?  Last place I had to post sources on a board post, I earned another throwaway Master's degree.  If you know, you know.  If not, stay in your bubble.   
My #1 goal: hope my kids don't live in my basement in a few years as "adults" because they didn't make the local 3v3 mall tournament team.

but when your kid comes back early from college and is living in your basement, will you be paying for his Beer League fees?