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Author Topic: AAA teams for next season  (Read 57527 times)

BladesofSteel66

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Re: AAA teams for next season
« Reply #45 on: January 28, 2020, 09:45:19 AM »

]Riverside (wildcats) is the reason we have the AAA rule. GSE was approved for 14U AAA last season and they couldn't field a team that they thought was a true AAA team. They dropped to AA and had a great season, but not all clubs do the right thing. People bitched and complained for years about too many AAA teams, now every on bitches and complains about not enough AAA teams. AAA isn't for everyone, it's a big commitment as a family and if that's what you want to do, you'll make the commute. If your kid can't make one of the two or three AAA teams in SoCal, then it's probably not where little johnny belongs.


THIS!


It's not about making the team.  It is about not living anywhere near those TWO clubs or the facilities.  Get over it.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2020, 09:46:16 AM by BladesofSteel66 »

Fourthliner

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Re: AAA teams for next season
« Reply #46 on: January 28, 2020, 09:52:48 AM »
Yes...  We all know about the Wildcats debacle.  Instead of condemning them and ripping away opportunities for more players to develop, maybe CAHA should have stepped in and hit them with a club suspension (deny them AAA for a season).  What CAHA did by eliminating more opportunities for AAA clubs did not treat the problem of that club. 


Wildcats aka Jr. Reign, STILL put teams up into higher levels that DO NOT BELONG.  It happens at that club at every age and level.  Just look at the standings.  That club didn't learn its lesson and that is the problem (regulating club/team declarations). 


Great post by SkatingDad.  There is an assumption that players only develop is the AAA team they are on is "competitive" and highly ranked nationally.  That elitism limits opportunities for OTHER athletes in CA to develop at the AAA level and get the EXPOSURE needed to advance to higher levels in the sport (juniors/college). 


It is another way to keep it a "good 'ol boys club" and honestly an abuse of power by CAHA.  "Abuse of power" is actually defined as oppression.  FYI. We are being oppressed.


Wait, so the Reign don't belong? They should be playing a lower level? Got it! That's the point. They should play the level where they are competitive! 


Why is there an assumption that kids can't develop playing AA hockey? I don't believe adding an extra letter somehow advances development. Nor does chasing teams significantly better than yours around. Exposure doesn't matter if your kid isn't the elite of the elite. And if he is the elite of the elite, they're going to be seen. Because at a certain point, talent is undeniable.

BladesofSteel66

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Re: AAA teams for next season
« Reply #47 on: January 28, 2020, 10:11:54 AM »
USA hockey and their research and development efforts have presented a wealth of information on player development.  Your misunderstanding that elite players stand out and eventually get seen is a contradiction to everything USA hockey has documented and shared. 
Player development happens not only at different ages/stages with different rates, but also due to the environment in which they are exposed aka the level of play and resources available. 


Again, as for Riverside, the club needed (needs) scolded for what it did, but then it needs guided on how to implement AAA procedures properly or continue to lose the opportunity. 

Fourthliner

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Re: AAA teams for next season
« Reply #48 on: January 28, 2020, 10:38:43 AM »

USA hockey and their research and development efforts have presented a wealth of information on player development.  Your misunderstanding that elite players stand out and eventually get seen is a contradiction to everything USA hockey has documented and shared. 


Can you please provide some documents that support this? Everything I have read and people I have spoken to who played at the highest levels maintain, if you are good enough, you will be seen. I think that's especially true if you are ELITE.

https://www.usahockey.com/news_article/show/978573
https://www.mahockey.org/news_article/show/920699
https://www.admkids.com/news_article/show/960481
https://www.minnesotahockey.org/news_article/show/807853
https://myhockeyrankings.com/news.php?b=550


Again, as for Riverside, the club needed (needs) scolded for what it did, but then it needs guided on how to implement AAA procedures properly or continue to lose the opportunity.

Yes! I agree! Play the correct level!

6607

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Re: AAA teams for next season
« Reply #49 on: January 28, 2020, 10:54:40 AM »
Regarding the Dogs:  it was the club and not CAHA that screwed the pooch(es).  Last
Spring, the Dogs had a wealth of 06 talent on two clubs, including 5 of the top 7 point producers.  Had they consolidated the top players onto one AAA team, they would have been a top AAA team.  Not only did they NOT consolidate talent, they bled talent and today none of those 5 kids are on the Dogs AAA team.  Neither is their best defenseman. In December, they fired the coach and lost 4 players as a result.  Losing so many players so late in the season raised serious questions about whether or
not the team was in compliance as of the decision with rules governing minimum rosters, minimum games played and Tier 1 eligibility.  Don’t blame CAHA on this one, because the Dogs are a textbook case of how to throw away a great opportunity.  Does anyone even know if they reapplied?

Knuckle Puck

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Re: AAA teams for next season
« Reply #50 on: January 28, 2020, 11:00:07 AM »
Quote
It's the AAA kids who are leaving the state for better opportunities, more exposure, less travel, juniors or whatever. The bulk of kids leaving are not AA studs who are getting screwed over because they can't play AAA.

incorrect. less than half of the 2003s and 2004s who have left the state (or gone to tahoe) over the past two seasons were aaa players.  many (over 20) of those departed aaa players are kids whose aaa teams at bears or gulls got purged by caha. yes, many very good aaa kids also have departed to shattuck and the like. the truth is that kids at all levels of aaa and aa are leaving in droves by midgets because the aaa options are so limited and a terrible value.

Quote
And guess what? The older teams at the AAA level with the addition of AA players making the jump up aren't very good. Do the math on why that might be.
i agree 100% that midget aaa is suffering. the "math" for why that has happened is the 50 or more kids per birth year who leave. imho, a few more options/competition in the market would keep more kids home, and motivate all clubs to be better. that usually is the case where market forces rather than monopoly (or duopoly) rule. of course, immediately adding 3-4 aaa clubs at midget won't work now, because the kids are already gone. the way to build this up is to develop more aaa at peewee and bantam, allowing kids/programs to grow for a few years, and then add a legit "academy" program or two here in socal starting at middle school age. caha needs to stop micro-managing the process.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2020, 11:06:25 AM by Knuckle Puck »

JackBender

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Re: AAA teams for next season
« Reply #51 on: January 28, 2020, 11:42:32 AM »
Regarding the Dogs:  it was the club and not CAHA that screwed the pooch(es).  Last
Spring, the Dogs had a wealth of 06 talent on two clubs, including 5 of the top 7 point producers.  Had they consolidated the top players onto one AAA team, they would have been a top AAA team.  Not only did they NOT consolidate talent, they bled talent and today none of those 5 kids are on the Dogs AAA team.  Neither is their best defenseman. In December, they fired the coach and lost 4 players as a result.  Losing so many players so late in the season raised serious questions about whether or
not the team was in compliance as of the decision with rules governing minimum rosters, minimum games played and Tier 1 eligibility.  Don’t blame CAHA on this one, because the Dogs are a textbook case of how to throw away a great opportunity.  Does anyone even know if they reapplied?


Well, to be fair... the three most productive Forwards from Riley's team are still on the AAA team following his firing.  And the five most productive kids from Semenov's team from last year never joined Riley's team this year because they wanted to play for Semenov. So, with Riley fired, you'd assume Konstantin was "fixing" the internal problem so that he could bring both groups together.


Ironically, after the firing, the Ice Dogs almost beat the mighty Jr Kings, losing in a shootout. They also went to a AAA tourney over MLK and won.  And that 06-heavy AA Semenov team just won Silver Sticks... so the Ice Dogs more than have the kids.  That is undeniable.   


I hope the Ice Dogs have appealed. CAHA can be reasoned with. Perhaps CAHA didn't have all the info or they were influenced by something else. Who knows. But the Ice Dogs have the kids. They have the facilities. They have the resources and organizational support... so they should also have AAA if they truly want it.  Citing the lowly Sharks and the newly added, less-talented Gulls 06 team, there's no reasonable explanation as to why the Ice Dogs should be stripped of AAA.

CAHA.  My dear friends.  Do the right thing.
I'm your Huckleberry

raca51

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Re: AAA teams for next season
« Reply #52 on: January 28, 2020, 12:36:11 PM »
You all seem to have a better understanding of how AAA in California works than I do so I am asking this question in the hopes your opinions can help me navigate this very confusing world of youth hockey. I have been told that unless your child plays AAA they will not advance. I have been told by others if they are good enough they will be noticed. If they are not playing AAA then who exactly is going to notice them if nobody pays attention to AA? This question is actually specifically for Goalies. With only 2 spots per team, and now only 2 teams in the Los Angeles area at the 06 level it appears that there is no room for advancement. As hard as it is for the skaters, it is even harder for the goalies to break in to AAA. Would a coach even consider replacing "a known" with an "unknown" even if they are thriving at the AA level? It is very discouraging that the Ice Dogs have been removed as an option and The Bears were denied. That leaves only 4 openings. 6 was bad enough but 4 is really tough. Even if a kid is not as good as those top 4 it doesn't mean that they are not more than capable of playing and thriving at the AAA level. What are the options? It seems to me that having a few more AAA options helps everyone. I really don't want to have my son leave CA at such a young age to pursue his passion.

Beer Leaguer

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Re: AAA teams for next season
« Reply #53 on: January 28, 2020, 01:17:51 PM »
IceDogs has 2 players make the silver stick bantam aa all tournament team  including the goalie.

WTF

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Re: AAA teams for next season
« Reply #54 on: January 28, 2020, 01:18:29 PM »
You all seem to have a better understanding of how AAA in California works than I do so I am asking this question in the hopes your opinions can help me navigate this very confusing world of youth hockey. I have been told that unless your child plays AAA they will not advance. I have been told by others if they are good enough they will be noticed. If they are not playing AAA then who exactly is going to notice them if nobody pays attention to AA? This question is actually specifically for Goalies. With only 2 spots per team, and now only 2 teams in the Los Angeles area at the 06 level it appears that there is no room for advancement. As hard as it is for the skaters, it is even harder for the goalies to break in to AAA. Would a coach even consider replacing "a known" with an "unknown" even if they are thriving at the AA level? It is very discouraging that the Ice Dogs have been removed as an option and The Bears were denied. That leaves only 4 openings. 6 was bad enough but 4 is really tough. Even if a kid is not as good as those top 4 it doesn't mean that they are not more than capable of playing and thriving at the AAA level. What are the options? It seems to me that having a few more AAA options helps everyone. I really don't want to have my son leave CA at such a young age to pursue his passion.


The concept of AAA is required to get noticed is false.  My son never played higher than AA as a youth, and now he is the starter for his team going into his senior year in DIII.  The important key is he needs to play, and where he plays he needs to play well.  85 to 90% of college commits do not decide on their college until they are 18 or 19 so you have plenty of time.  Puberty and other factors affect their development, but THE MOST IMPORTANT is he needs to play in meaningful games.  In my case my son left home at 17 to go play Juniors, where he led his team to the league championship and then continued his development from there. 

BladesofSteel66

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Re: AAA teams for next season
« Reply #55 on: January 28, 2020, 01:49:33 PM »

USA hockey and their research and development efforts have presented a wealth of information on player development.  Your misunderstanding that elite players stand out and eventually get seen is a contradiction to everything USA hockey has documented and shared. 

Can you please provide some documents that support this? Everything I have read and people I have spoken to who played at the highest levels maintain, if you are good enough, you will be seen. I think that's especially true if you are ELITE.

https://www.usahockey.com/news_article/show/978573
https://www.mahockey.org/news_article/show/920699
https://www.admkids.com/news_article/show/960481
https://www.minnesotahockey.org/news_article/show/807853
https://myhockeyrankings.com/news.php?b=550


Again, as for Riverside, the club needed (needs) scolded for what it did, but then it needs guided on how to implement AAA procedures properly or continue to lose the opportunity.

Yes! I agree! Play the correct level!


I am only going to address the FIRST article you shared on Ben Bishop.  That title refers to a player in a position from PREP SCHOOL looking to play USHL.  He went to tryouts.  Didn't make it and went to other leagues and made it...
That is NOT PW, Bantam, or Midget....  That is not in anyway nearly the same nor does it provide evidence for your point "elite players are found regardless."  It DOES prove my point that players develop at different ages AND based on the ENVIRONMENT they are coached.  Not arguing here, just point out an obvious misconception.  (I will look at the other articles in a bit.  Thanks for sharing.  I will dig up the research presented to all the coached at the level 3, 4, and 5 symposiums etc.) 

raca51

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Re: AAA teams for next season
« Reply #56 on: January 28, 2020, 02:35:34 PM »
You all seem to have a better understanding of how AAA in California works than I do so I am asking this question in the hopes your opinions can help me navigate this very confusing world of youth hockey. I have been told that unless your child plays AAA they will not advance. I have been told by others if they are good enough they will be noticed. If they are not playing AAA then who exactly is going to notice them if nobody pays attention to AA? This question is actually specifically for Goalies. With only 2 spots per team, and now only 2 teams in the Los Angeles area at the 06 level it appears that there is no room for advancement. As hard as it is for the skaters, it is even harder for the goalies to break in to AAA. Would a coach even consider replacing "a known" with an "unknown" even if they are thriving at the AA level? It is very discouraging that the Ice Dogs have been removed as an option and The Bears were denied. That leaves only 4 openings. 6 was bad enough but 4 is really tough. Even if a kid is not as good as those top 4 it doesn't mean that they are not more than capable of playing and thriving at the AAA level. What are the options? It seems to me that having a few more AAA options helps everyone. I really don't want to have my son leave CA at such a young age to pursue his passion.


The concept of AAA is required to get noticed is false.  My son never played higher than AA as a youth, and now he is the starter for his team going into his senior year in DIII.  The important key is he needs to play, and where he plays he needs to play well.  85 to 90% of college commits do not decide on their college until they are 18 or 19 so you have plenty of time.  Puberty and other factors affect their development, but THE MOST IMPORTANT is he needs to play in meaningful games.  In my case my son left home at 17 to go play Juniors, where he led his team to the league championship and then continued his development from there.


So by meaningful games do you mean maybe trying to get on a tournament team that plays in the major tournaments, or to just be on a really good team during the season that plays in some higher level tournaments? On a local level are there things kids can do that get them noticed? Do coaches look at stats, SCAHA and CAHA camp results, word of mouth? Just curious how one gets noticed without being one of those parents pushing their kid on people.

ohnonotagain

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Re: AAA teams for next season
« Reply #57 on: January 29, 2020, 07:44:34 AM »
You all seem to have a better understanding of how AAA in California works than I do so I am asking this question in the hopes your opinions can help me navigate this very confusing world of youth hockey. I have been told that unless your child plays AAA they will not advance. I have been told by others if they are good enough they will be noticed. If they are not playing AAA then who exactly is going to notice them if nobody pays attention to AA? This question is actually specifically for Goalies. With only 2 spots per team, and now only 2 teams in the Los Angeles area at the 06 level it appears that there is no room for advancement. As hard as it is for the skaters, it is even harder for the goalies to break in to AAA. Would a coach even consider replacing "a known" with an "unknown" even if they are thriving at the AA level? It is very discouraging that the Ice Dogs have been removed as an option and The Bears were denied. That leaves only 4 openings. 6 was bad enough but 4 is really tough. Even if a kid is not as good as those top 4 it doesn't mean that they are not more than capable of playing and thriving at the AAA level. What are the options? It seems to me that having a few more AAA options helps everyone. I really don't want to have my son leave CA at such a young age to pursue his passion.


There are many paths to Juniors and College hockey.  Even the WHL drafts players from American AA ranks.  If a player is good enough, they will get noticed.

SkatingDad

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Re: AAA teams for next season
« Reply #58 on: January 29, 2020, 08:20:24 AM »
There are many paths to Juniors and College hockey.  Even the WHL drafts players from American AA ranks.  If a player is good enough, they will get noticed.


AA kids can certainly go to Junior camps and get noticed.  However, this is an edge case and does not really happen often. AA is not scouted. I have never heard of a Tier 1 or Tier 2 Juniors club wasting a draft pick on an AA kid (would love an example). They will give tenders to AA kids but, that does not really mean anything.  If you are targeting Tier 1 Juniors USHL or CHL (WHL, OHL, QMJHL) or even Tier 2 Juniors NAHL or CJHL (BCHL, AJHL, SJHL, MJHL, SIJHL, NOJHL, OJHL, CCHL, LHJQ, MHL) you need to be on their radar. The scouts/coaches need to have already seen you or your player and be interested or he will get lost in the hundreds of kids that come to these camps.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2020, 08:33:39 AM by SkatingDad »

notTHATdad

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Re: AAA teams for next season
« Reply #59 on: January 29, 2020, 08:42:54 AM »
Not as simple topic. And Norcal seems to be different than Socal. In Norcal there still aren't enough players to field 2 AAA teams in most/all the age groups. It's been tried. Which really sucks, because competition would be good for all clubs involved, and the geography of the bay area makes some commutes almost impossible.


Probably different in Socal, but I don't know.


Where should your kid play? At the highest level that they will actually get ice time. I've had kids in AA and AAA and the hockey is definitely different. Most AA kids cannot be successful at AAA. When they are put in that situation (due to short rosters, bad choices, etc), it is typically a miserable experience of failure, ridicule from team mates (remember, they are kids), and sitting on the bench. It usually ends up being a short stay at AAA, with lots of unhappiness and hurt feelings.


AAA kids playing down in AA typically hate it too. It's not just about skill, speed, or size. It's about hockey sense and understanding the game.  An actual AAA player stuck in AA will complain about teammates that can't catch passes, don't take it seriously enough,  and are constantly in the wrong place.


If your kid didn't make an AAA team it's almost certainly because they aren't playing at that level. Don't worry about it - play AA where they will actually hit the ice, and let them develop. Tell them they need to try harder and put in more time - that's usually the honest truth.


It's like the old adage at most workplaces - no boss ever gives someone a promotion because they think they can do the job. They give them a promotion because they actually ARE doing the job and deserve it. Same with advancement from AA to AAA. And the reality is most AAA coaches have years or decades of experience looking at players and are motivated to succeed. They do remarkably well picking out the right kids at tryouts.


An AA player won't magically become a AAA player by being on an AAA team. It doesn't work like that.


As for getting seen, I actually disagree with some of the statements above.


Level does make a difference for kids that want to be picked up early. AA kids are not typically going to get drafted into the WHL. An example: Jr Sharks had 4 players (or in one case ex-players) drafted in the WHL Bantam draft last year. All of them played AAA. I think that's very typical. AAA teams will also be at tournaments with scouts like Tier 1 Elite tournaments. Much less so for AA as they simply can't get in to those tournaments.


Most scouts have a very limited number of trips they can take (in NCAA it's actually mandated to 1 per year), so they are going to focus on AAA tournaments. That's also why prep schools can be good - they are typically on the east coast where the scouts are. And prep schools are essentially commercial ventures - to a large degree you pay your way in.


Does that mean an AA player is never going to go anywhere? No, not at all. It will just take longer, and the 'route' to playing in college might be a bit less 'sexy' than getting drafted, etc. Most colleges are looking for 19 year olds. There is lots of time. The most important things are:


- Figure out where your kid will develop
- Don't put them in a place where they will sit on the bench or be miserable
- Encourage them to put in the extra time. Shoot 100 pucks a day. Do extra on ice practices.  Work out off ice. Keep your marks up. It's a huge commitment. There are very few successful AAA players that "just show up for the practices."