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Hockey Discussions => Bantam Hockey => Topic started by: lcadad on April 16, 2019, 04:50:17 AM
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Once again, people will have to start thinking about this, as tryouts for teams will most likely be the First weekend of June, June 7-9.
Bears1, Ducks1 & Saints1 would have to be early favorites.
2019-2020 *Unofficial* List of Bantam AA Teams (SoCal)
| Club | Team | Coaches | Home Rink | Info |
| | | | |
| Bears | 1 | Torsson (h) | Pickwick | '05 |
| Bears | 2 | Bubushyan (h) | Pickwick | '05/06 |
| Condors | 2 | Mears (h) | Bakersfield Ice | '05/06 |
| Ducks | 1 | Kohn (h) | Great Ice Irvine | '05 |
| Ducks | 2 | Maxwell (h) | Great Ice Irvine | '06 |
| Empire | 1 | (h) Hamacher | Ontario Ice | '05 |
| Empire | 2 | (h) Hamacher | Ontario Ice | '06 |
| Gulls | 2 | Babin (h) | Escondido | '05/06 |
| Ice Dogs | 2 | Semenov (h) | KHS | '05/06 |
| Kings | 1 | Tatavosian (h) | El Segundo | '05 |
| Kings | 2 | (h) | El Segundo | '06 |
| OCHC | 1 | Shand (h) | Yorba Linda | '05 |
| Reign | 1 | Esdale(h) | Riverside | '05/06 |
| Saints | 1 | Robinson (h) | Carlsbad | '05 |
| Saints | 2 | Parker (h) | Poway | '06 |
| Valencia | AA | Sisak (h) | Ice Station | '05 |
| Wave | 1 | Wada (h) | East West Ice Palace | '05 |
| Wave | 2 | Epperly (h) | East West Ice Palace | '06 |
2019-2020 *Unofficial* List of Bantam AA Teams (NorCal)
| Club | Team | Coaches | Home Rink | Info |
| | | | |
| GSE North | 2 | Molotilov (h) | Vacaville | '05/06 |
| GSE South | 1 | Morrissette (h) | ? | '05/06 |
| Sharks | AA | Gollete (h) | Solar4 America Ice | '05/06 |
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So does anyone know what new crazy rules CAHA might have come up with for next season? Hopefully they change the 20 minute jamboree show. And hopefully they share their new rules before tryouts!
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So does anyone know what new crazy rules CAHA might have come up with for next season? Hopefully they change the 20 minute jamboree show. And hopefully they share their new rules before tryouts!
No need for any changes. CAHA has created the perfect Tier2 system and satisfaction is at an all time high
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Pretty sure Ice Dogs will have an 05/06 AA team coached by Semenov
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Pretty sure Ice Dogs will have an 05/06 AA team coached by Semenov
Updated List
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So does anyone know what new crazy rules CAHA might have come up with for next season? Hopefully they change the 20 minute jamboree show. And hopefully they share their new rules before tryouts!
No need for any changes. CAHA has created the perfect Tier2 system and satisfaction is at an all time high
Lol! Get out! They really are oblivious!
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Where is everyone playing at for Memorial tournaments? And does anyone what to make any early predictions?
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Where is everyone playing at for Memorial tournaments? And does anyone what to make any early predictions?
Prediction?
Pain.
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Memorial Day seems less and less a predictor of anything. Kids play on teams they aren't going to play for in the fall, or don't play tournaments at all like the Bears, and in some cases are even playing for multiple teams. In many cases the teams are part of a spring clinic series.
Whatever the results end up being haven't predicted a whole lot, and you can take this with a huge grain of salt, but what I saw the last few years is that a lot of the predominantly minor year teams have played at the Rinks, and major year teams have played in Carmen Starr. Carmen Starr, as one parent reminded me recently, has become a tour of southland rinks. I mean who doesn't want to play a morning game at TSC and an afternoon game at KHS?
The AAA division (which is actually AA really) has exactly 2 Socal teams this year. Oddly the AA/A division is also a wild mix of teams, with 2 GSE teams entered this season. At the end of the day, some kids play some hockey, there will be some tremendous mismatches, you have in house players playing with AAA's here and there, and it seems that people care less and less about it, which seems different than in the way it was viewed in years past, but perhaps that's also because by Bantam families aren't as easily mislead as to the relative importance of these things as they may have been when their kids were younger.
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A few last minute updates:
-Wada decided not to go forward with a team. There is still the other Wave team coached by Epperly
-Perhaps in relation to the Shattuck partnership the Mariners suddenly announced a AA team. I find it unlikely, but you never know
-I doubt that Bakersfield will have a viable AA team given that a number of their best Bantam players will be playing elsewhere as in years past
-I think Empire will have one 05/06 team
My best guess on final numbers is 16-17 teams, but perhaps a team will emerge from Norcal that gets them to 4?
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At the Country Bear Jamboree in SJ there will be 21 Teams
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2019-2020 Pre-Jamboree List of Bantam AA Teams (NorCal) (4 Teams)
| Club | Team | Coaches | Home Rink | Info |
| Blackhawks | AA | Alonzo, Sr (h) | Sharks Ice Fremont | '05 |
| | | | |
| GSE North | 2 | Molotilov (h) | Vacaville | '05/06 |
| GSE South | 1 | Morrissette (h) | ? | '05/06 |
| Sharks | AA | Gollete (h) | Solar4 America Ice | '05/06 |
2019-2020 Pre-Jamboree List of Bantam AA Teams (SoCal) (17 Teams)
| Club | Team | Coaches | Home Rink | Info |
| | | | |
| Bears | 1 | Torsson (h) | Pickwick | '05 |
| Bears | 2 | Bubushyan (h) | Pickwick | '05/06 |
| Condors | AA | Mears (h) | Bakersfield Ice | '05/06 |
| Ducks | 1 | Kohn (h) | Great Ice Irvine | '05 |
| Ducks | 2 | Maxwell (h) | Great Ice Irvine | '06 |
| Empire | AA | (h) Hamacher | Ontario Ice | '06 |
| Gulls | 1 | Babin (h) | Escondido | '05 |
| Gulls | 2 | Carlyle (h) | Escondido | '06 |
| Ice Dogs | 1 | Semenov (h) | KHS | '05 |
| Kings | 1 | Tatavosian (h) | El Segundo | '05 |
| Kings | 2 | Graham (h) | El Segundo | '06 |
| OCHC | AA | Shand (h) | Yorba Linda | '05 |
| Reign | 1 | Esdale (h) | Riverside | '05 |
| Reign | 2 | Vychodil (h) | Riverside | '05/06 |
| Saints | 1 | Robinson (h) | Poway | '05 |
| Valencia | AA | Sisak (h) | Ice Station | '05 |
| Wave | AA | Epperly (h) | East West Ice Palace | '06 |
To be clear, the birth year designations are my unofficial understanding of the team makeup.
- majority of the team is primarily '05
- majority of the team is primarily '06
- A substantial mix
An '05 team could have a few '06's and an '06 team could have a few '05's. Obviously there are some pure minor year teams that tend to emerge and with success, may end up punching up into AAA tournaments during the season. I would also expect that Bears1 and Saints will be playing up into '05 AAA as the season goes on.
With that said, there are some surprising and head scratching additions to the spring list. In particular Reign2 and Gulls2 were unexpected additions. In Norcal the Blackhawks have joined GSE and the Sharks, but I don't find that surprising as the '05 Blackhawks have been tier contenders as recently as the PWAA '05 year.
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Looking at the above list, there are at least 5 teams that shouldn’t be playing AA at all. Any guesses on who will be flight 1?
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Looking at the above list, there are at least 5 teams that shouldn’t be playing AA at all. Any guesses on who will be flight 1?
I'd like to see your list of the 5 teams you think should be dropped. Would make for some interesting conversation I bet!
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Condors, Ducks Maxwell, Jr Reign 2, Wave 06, and Empire 06 on the bubble.
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Condors, Ducks Maxwell, Jr Reign 2, Wave 06, and Empire 06 on the bubble.
Interesting that pretty much all those teams are '06's. What about Gulls2 and Sharks?
Sharks to my knowledge don't have a lot of returning '05's, and if you look at 2 years ago, when '05's were major year PWAA, the Sharks team was forced down after the Jamboree. I'm wondering if this means that Sharks are also mainly an '06 team.
The Gulls had a pretty good Flight1 '05 team at the PWAA level, but from my understanding, that team essentially disbanded with some players going to the Saints and elsewhere.
This goes to my contention that if CAHA wanted to actually fix this flight mess, and make things better for players and families, they would align Tier2 with Tier1 and create Major/Minor divisions.
In the case of a team like the Condors, that hasn't had a Tier program in some years, I think it could be handled with some documentation from the club in regards to the roster and it's recent history, as well as a few "show me" games against known entities in the southland. This used to be the purpose of pre-season games and to a degree voluntary participation in Labor Day tournaments.
The CAHA jamboree is like the US Airport screening system, where everyone now has to take off their shoes to go through scanners twice on any round trip, because one idiot failed to light off a jury rigged shoe bomb 18 years ago.
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Empire 06 is not exactly all-06... They have a few solid 05's. Not sure how they'll flight, but Hamacher will have them dialed in and they will compete.
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Condors, Ducks Maxwell, Jr Reign 2, Wave 06, and Empire 06 on the bubble.
The CAHA jamboree is like the US Airport screening system, where everyone now has to take off their shoes to go through scanners twice on any round trip, because one idiot failed to light off a jury rigged shoe bomb 18 years ago.
And Ducks and Kings have Global Entry while others only have TSA Prescreening.
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And Ducks and Kings have Global Entry while others only have TSA Prescreening.
I’m not certain the Kings 04 team from last year would agree with that...
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Or the Ducks 04 team from last year either...
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My guess is to add one team from up North to flight two, another '06 team from San Diego, and a team from the Los Angeles area.Great job guys, the work is completed. We just saved the bantam hockey families in this state tens of thousands of dollars. Now that we've figured it all out for 2019-20 (minus a few of scrimmages) we can crack a cold one and plan that back yard BBQ. Or, take our player to a tournament that his team wants to attend over Labor Day, instead of a statewide bantam jamboree.
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Any scores from this weekends scrimmages?
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Wave vs Empire- Wave won 4-1
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So, let me get this straight. The Wave 06 team that should drop has now beaten Empire 4-1 and from what I’ve just heard also beat the Bears 2 last night 4-1. This is going to be a very interesting year. See you in San Jose. 8)
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Wave team added some bigger bodies than they had at Carmen Star, played much more physical than empire team, and dont forget that group has been together for along time, and it showed.
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The Wave AA team is mostly 05’s.
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Wave team wasn't bad in the spring, but if they have morphed into a majority '05 team, that's great. First off, Bears were also short a few core players from their roster, the ice was terrible due to the opening day event they had directly before the game, and the actual scrimmage was a mess, as the refs who were hired didn't show up. Bears coach had to go find someone to ref the game which took close to 20 minutes, and the resulting slow play and a number of inexplicable calls wasted a lot of time, leading to a 10 minute running clock in the 3rd. With that said, the Wave have some very good players, and good depth from the look of it.
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That wave AA team is not the same team that played in the spring. The spring team would beat this wave team. Different coaches. The AA wave team is mostly Beutners Wave A team from last season with a few PW 06 AA wave players.
The wave team at Carmen star didn’t make it to the finals but the spring wave Angry Eskimos team did.
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That wave AA team is not the same team that played in the spring. The spring team would beat this wave team. Different coaches. The AA wave team is mostly Beutners Wave A team from last season with a few PW 06 AA wave players.
The wave team at Carmen star didn’t make it to the finals but the spring wave Angry Eskimos team did.
Thanks for the background story. I know a bit about the Wada spring Wave team, as my kid played on it, and I certainly recognized a number of kids from wave teams over the years, as well as seeing a number of kids from the other Wave team that played at easter and the spring.
Also just for the record, I haven't seen anyone stating that the Wave was a team that should drop. As things move along, if there are teams that should drop I'm sure that will become evident. I know I never opined that the Wave should be dropped, even when I thought it was going to be primarily an '06 team.
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Yeah was looking forward to some Wada Wave Bantam AA competition as we played against them last season and it was some good competition and was disappointed to hear that he wasn’t the coach for 14 AA this season. They did so well last season.
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Yeah was looking forward to some Wada Wave Bantam AA competition as we played against them last season and it was some good competition and was disappointed to hear that he wasn’t the coach for 14 AA this season. They did so well last season.
Last years Bantam AA WW team was mostly 04s with 2 05s . One went to Peety's Prep school team the other went to Midget AA
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Pretty quiet in here, is anybody scrimmaging, any scores to post? looks like kings 1 will be strong, beat empire 7 to 0 yesterday.
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ice dogs beat kings2: 4-2
kings2 beat wave: 4-1
bears2 tied flyers: 3-3
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Bears2 tied Flyers 3-3? Interesting, as I figured Flyers would be stronger based on last year's team. I heard Ice Dogs beat Bears2 8-1 last week. Anyone have info on Kings 1 new coach? I heard Tats took a new job in Idaho or something. Hope the coaching change doesn't impact the team, as they look to be pretty strong. Any other scrimmage scores going into the jamboree.
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Neither reign team belongs in AA. Why do they keep doing this?
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Neither reign team belongs in AA. Why do they keep doing this?
$$$$$$$$$
My buddy BF needs $$ to pay me back.
Interest is compounding daily. :P
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Had the talent to make one solid team but instead made two. Trans may be majorly correct. $$$$. I do know that they are trying to build for a pool of kids for 16AAA.
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Eh...not so much. The latest CAHA Tier I application (on the website) doesn't really have any *requirements* - rather it just asks questions about your clubs plans and make up. Though, with so many years of their a/b and Tier II teams grossly under performing, I can't think that CAHA actually takes an honest read through their application. An what if they both dropped after the jamboree... would CAHA require the Tier I team to fold? Of course not.
I do remember there used to be a rule where you had to have so many of each colour Pokemon...err team to get a Tier I slot - but apparently that was either urban legend - or has gone out of vogue.
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I would like to see more opportunities for AAA besides the kings, ducks, and sharks.
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I would like to see more opportunities for AAA besides the kings, ducks, and sharks.
so would the 150-plus midgets and bantams who are playing elsewhere this season (over 70 in '03 class alone). but caha will point to the two kids who stuck it out here and made the usntdp, and declare their restrictive aaa model a tremendous success.
150 plus midgets and bantams off to prep schools. Clearly that suggests that ice hockey in California is an affluent, very affluent, family activity. Comparing hockey to football, basketball, baseball, soccer, and track and field, does not seems like a winning strategy for international competitiveness. Such a beautiful game for such a narrow slice of our population.
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8.3 Eligibility for Tier I
CAHA shall establish the terms that an association must achieve to field state championship eligible Tier I teams.
Member Associations fielding Tier I teams shall maintain a minimum of two (2) teams at their Tier II level in the current and previous seasons. Member Association must have been in existence for a minimum of three (3) seasons.
:-X
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I would like to see more opportunities for AAA besides the kings, ducks, and sharks.
in one post your complaining that there are AA teams that don't belong, then you want more AAA teams? If your kid didn't make it this year, he'll have another chance next year. AAA was watered down a few years ago and everyone complained. Now everyone complains because they can't get little Johnny his extra letter.
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I would like to see more opportunities for AAA besides the kings, ducks, and sharks.
in one post your complaining that there are AA teams that don't belong, then you want more AAA teams? If your kid didn't make it this year, he'll have another chance next year. AAA was watered down a few years ago and everyone complained. Now everyone complains because they can't get little Johnny his extra letter.
Yes, a few people making a lot of noise which made them believe they should act and enact rules. Same process with our wacko politicians in sacramento and DC. The majority of the population believe the rules/laws are BS.
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150 plus midgets and bantams off to prep schools. Clearly that suggests that ice hockey in California is an affluent, very affluent, family activity. Comparing hockey to football, basketball, baseball, soccer, and track and field, does not seems like a winning strategy for international competitiveness. Such a beautiful game for such a narrow slice of our population.
only 2/3rds of those kids at prep/academys; 1/3 playing aaa out of state. your bigger point about cost is valid. the only rink i’ve seen with more expensive ice time than tsc and anaheim is chelsea piers manhattan. $22 for a 6 am stick time @ tsc :o
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Just about anyone with a serious player is considering any and all alternatives to hockey in California. The system in place is a failure. If it was not, then all of these players wouldn't be leaving.
Studies and statistics have been posted on this board. Say what you want about the watered down AAA product in the past, but those teams did okay on the national level. Players were provided an opportunity and some of those players are still playing.
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Hockey is a cult sport in California. The fact that we are exporting a relatively small number of players is a sign of marginal progress. I doubt that many players with matching elite levels of ambition and skill would stay to play in an expanded version of “AAAâ€, when most are leaving for either prep school (not a real California option), to play with and for more elite competition (not an option in California) or for greater exposure to scouts (also not an option here)
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Last I checked...
2 California 15AAA teams made it to nationals last year right? (Ducks and Sharks)
There are 1200 AA teams nationally, and 110 AAA teams, or about 10-1
We have 3 AAA teams for about 18 AA teams. The ratio is even higher.
Doesn't sound that "watered down" to me.
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Here are the registration statistics for USA Hockey:
https://cdn1.sportngin.com/attachments/document/2210-1687681/2018-19_Final_Registration_Report.pdf?_ga=2.28920952.576185148.1567648672-1897795979.1551128881 (https://cdn1.sportngin.com/attachments/document/2210-1687681/2018-19_Final_Registration_Report.pdf?_ga=2.28920952.576185148.1567648672-1897795979.1551128881)
It isn't MN or NY but there are a lot of players out here. I think most parents and players know the dream, whatever it may be, is not going to happen. They just want to keep playing competitively and they don't view what is out here as good enough.
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Looking on the bright side, CAHA could not possibly do a better job of forcing California's best players to pursue opportunities outside the state at an early age.
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Here are the registration statistics for USA Hockey:
https://cdn1.sportngin.com/attachments/document/2210-1687681/2018-19_Final_Registration_Report.pdf?_ga=2.28920952.576185148.1567648672-1897795979.1551128881 (https://cdn1.sportngin.com/attachments/document/2210-1687681/2018-19_Final_Registration_Report.pdf?_ga=2.28920952.576185148.1567648672-1897795979.1551128881)
It isn't MN or NY but there are a lot of players out here. I think most parents and players know the dream, whatever it may be, is not going to happen. They just want to keep playing competitively and they don't view what is out here as good enough.
We have beaten this subject to death (I have certainly contributed). The registration numbers do provide a good way to compare CA vs. the rest of the country however.
I did quick comparison of # of total registered players (boys only) for the 13-14 and 15-16 in IL, MI, CA, MA, NY and CO as compared to the # of AAA players in these respective states.
To my surprise, IL actually has fewer boys (as a %) playing at AAA compared to the total # of registered players. CA has the next lowest percentage. NY had the highest % of AAA players to total registered players at 13-14 and 2nd highest at 15-16.
The differences are not real big across the board though so I'm not sure exactly what, "they don't view what is out here is good enough" means. If CA added one more AAA team in SoCal at each level (13AAA, 14AAA, 15AAA, 16AAA) we'd fall right in the middle of the aforementioned states at the Bantam level. Add one in SoCal and one in NorCal at each level and we'd be right behind NY with the highest %. I get the sense that still would not make the loudest critics happy.
One could also argue that if you look closer at the states with the highest % of AAA players to total registered players, the AAA teams near the bottom of the rankings would be mid pack AA teams in their state (using My Hockey Rankings). Are they misplaced?? Does having them playing AAA help or hurt the age group?
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I find the aaa v aa debate to be a bit beside the point. We don’t need a single rule change to revive hockey in this state. We need an innovator. We have managers who do a fine job, but imagine a CAHA that makes people value their child’s experience in CA.
Caha sponsors a tournament at every age level at the end of the year where the top two aa teams are invited to play the aaa teams.
Scaha could do the same in the lower levels.
The website could have picture cards for each player. The players stats could be managed and Parents could upload highlight plays.
Each team could be loaned one of the sensor packages that are coming out for coaches. It tracks the speed and activity of each player for one game. The stats could be incorporated in the player card to promote players beyond our borders.
California has some of the deepest resources in the country. Why don’t we have a Apple sponsored spring team that costs nothing and is open only to California players who want to test some of the best tournaments back east in the off season.
I know that it’s just me talking(I’d rather have someone engaging like Keanu Reeves lead the charge. Everyone listens to Keanu Reeves). I don’t expect a revolution, We need leadership that can put new ideas into motion and draw kids into the sport and take them to the top of the sport.
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"in one post your complaining that there are AA teams that don't belong, then you want more AAA teams? If your kid didn't make it this year, he'll have another chance next year. AAA was watered down a few years ago and everyone complained. Now everyone complains because they can't get little Johnny his extra letter."
Hey Area, I never made that complaint. I would never say that. I don't see myself as one who would limit those opportunities for AA teams that want to play in the division of their choice. I'm not from Vacaville.
On the other point. My son didn't tryout for AAA, so he is unaffected. The exodus from CA is alarming. CAHA needs to rethink their strategy to one that is perhaps less self serving. I am not exactly sure what their motivation is. Open for discussion, I suppose. There just seems to be far too many players leaving CA. So not good for the health of local competition. [/font]
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Here are the registration statistics for USA Hockey:
https://cdn1.sportngin.com/attachments/document/2210-1687681/2018-19_Final_Registration_Report.pdf?_ga=2.28920952.576185148.1567648672-1897795979.1551128881 (https://cdn1.sportngin.com/attachments/document/2210-1687681/2018-19_Final_Registration_Report.pdf?_ga=2.28920952.576185148.1567648672-1897795979.1551128881)
It isn't MN or NY but there are a lot of players out here. I think most parents and players know the dream, whatever it may be, is not going to happen. They just want to keep playing competitively and they don't view what is out here as good enough.
We have beaten this subject to death (I have certainly contributed). The registration numbers do provide a good way to compare CA vs. the rest of the country however.
I did quick comparison of # of total registered players (boys only) for the 13-14 and 15-16 in IL, MI, CA, MA, NY and CO as compared to the # of AAA players in these respective states.
To my surprise, IL actually has fewer boys (as a %) playing at AAA compared to the total # of registered players. CA has the next lowest percentage. NY had the highest % of AAA players to total registered players at 13-14 and 2nd highest at 15-16.
The differences are not real big across the board though so I'm not sure exactly what, "they don't view what is out here is good enough" means. If CA added one more AAA team in SoCal at each level (13AAA, 14AAA, 15AAA, 16AAA) we'd fall right in the middle of the aforementioned states at the Bantam level. Add one in SoCal and one in NorCal at each level and we'd be right behind NY with the highest %. I get the sense that still would not make the loudest critics happy.
One could also argue that if you look closer at the states with the highest % of AAA players to total registered players, the AAA teams near the bottom of the rankings would be mid pack AA teams in their state (using My Hockey Rankings). Are they misplaced?? Does having them playing AAA help or hurt the age group?
Hard to make meaningful comparisons between CA and places like IL and NY in my opinion. When the Ducks and Kings AAA teams are forced to play each other a dozen times every season at every age level, and fly cross-country every two or three weeks find someone else to play, we create an almost uniquely impossible environment for the game for flourish.
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Here are the registration statistics for USA Hockey:
https://cdn1.sportngin.com/attachments/document/2210-1687681/2018-19_Final_Registration_Report.pdf?_ga=2.28920952.576185148.1567648672-1897795979.1551128881 (https://cdn1.sportngin.com/attachments/document/2210-1687681/2018-19_Final_Registration_Report.pdf?_ga=2.28920952.576185148.1567648672-1897795979.1551128881)
It isn't MN or NY but there are a lot of players out here. I think most parents and players know the dream, whatever it may be, is not going to happen. They just want to keep playing competitively and they don't view what is out here as good enough.
We have beaten this subject to death (I have certainly contributed). The registration numbers do provide a good way to compare CA vs. the rest of the country however.
I did quick comparison of # of total registered players (boys only) for the 13-14 and 15-16 in IL, MI, CA, MA, NY and CO as compared to the # of AAA players in these respective states.
To my surprise, IL actually has fewer boys (as a %) playing at AAA compared to the total # of registered players. CA has the next lowest percentage. NY had the highest % of AAA players to total registered players at 13-14 and 2nd highest at 15-16.
The differences are not real big across the board though so I'm not sure exactly what, "they don't view what is out here is good enough" means. If CA added one more AAA team in SoCal at each level (13AAA, 14AAA, 15AAA, 16AAA) we'd fall right in the middle of the aforementioned states at the Bantam level. Add one in SoCal and one in NorCal at each level and we'd be right behind NY with the highest %. I get the sense that still would not make the loudest critics happy.
One could also argue that if you look closer at the states with the highest % of AAA players to total registered players, the AAA teams near the bottom of the rankings would be mid pack AA teams in their state (using My Hockey Rankings). Are they misplaced?? Does having them playing AAA help or hurt the age group?
Hard to make meaningful comparisons between CA and places like IL and NY in my opinion. When the Ducks and Kings AAA teams are forced to play each other a dozen times every season at every age level, and fly cross-country every two or three weeks find someone else to play, we create an almost uniquely impossible environment for the game for flourish.
I agree. Let's face it. Hockey in California is a fringe sport. The relatively low number of participants plus the large geographical layout, makes it as you say, "uniquely impossible environment for the game to flourish." These factors make it extremely hard for CAHA to do anything meaningful about. The way the argument goes for many is that CAHA is to blame which is crazy in my opinion. Are they perfect. . . .not even close. They have not set up the current system much different than any other state though which is what I was trying to show by analyzing the registration #s.
My son has played AAA for years. I knew the large amount of travel was part of the deal. He and the family have loved every moment of it. We've visited cities we likely never would have without the sport. I'd personally take that any day over the convenience of playing more locally in a watered down version of play or blasting the hell out of teams that have no business fielding AAA teams just so there are more for the division.
I don't know what is the best solution. I'm open to debating new approaches but for the most part, people just come on here and complain. Is there another state using a better approach? If so, where and what do they do that could be implemented feasibly in CA?
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I would like to see more opportunities for AAA besides the kings, ducks, and sharks.
in one post your complaining that there are AA teams that don't belong, then you want more AAA teams? If your kid didn't make it this year, he'll have another chance next year. AAA was watered down a few years ago and everyone complained. Now everyone complains because they can't get little Johnny his extra letter.
Several seem to say that AAA is "watered" down...my question is in comparison to who? The same could be said about AA...it's watered down and the kids that are moving to AAA don't find the competition so all they have to resort to is AAA.
Would be nice if there were other AAA SoCal teams besides the three that exist.
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One of the posters above almost hit what is probably our best hope. We need a few more western states to get serious about AAA. I am hoping that the Jr Knights will turn AAA some day, and a similar team in Seattle once they have their NHL franchise running will do it. The NHL clubs all want to have feeder systems, if for no other reason than you end up with a lot of well heeled ex hockey players in an area when you have an NHL club.
Once we have a couple more AAA clubs on the coast, we will have the possibility of a nice little AAA western circuit and the travel costs will come down for everyone. CAHA will have nothing to do with that.
Just in time for my kids to all have finished playing >:(
As for the 'great bleed' that everyone seems to see of kids going to east coast schools, I'm sorry, but I don't see it as a crisis. It happens everywhere. My nephew did it... from Ontario. When your kid is good enough, regardless of where you play, at some point that becomes a possibility that you have to look at. We did, and decided our kid was too young to move away. I know the Bantam Major Jr Sharks lost 1 to prep school this year. Not sure what happened with the Kings or Ducks but 'other' issues will certainly have contributed to the Kings. When presented with choices, sometime people choose to take a chance.
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aaa post-peewee ultimately is going to be dominated by the academy model. that's what families want -- a coordinated academic/hockey program that provides more time on the ice, reduced travel, less missed class time, decent to excellent academics all at a manageable cost. the academies/preps already are taking over in the northeast and western canada, and making inroads in the midwest.
an example of what this ultimately could look like is the csshl in western canada. http://www.csshl.ca/leagues/custom_page.cfm?clientid=4542&leagueid=15269&pageid=17663 (http://www.csshl.ca/leagues/custom_page.cfm?clientid=4542&leagueid=15269&pageid=17663). its a combo of historically strong private/boarding schools (saints, shawnigan), plus hockey academies that send their kids to accomodating private schools located close to rinks (oha, west van, bwc). the 12 to 15 teams per age division play each other and very rarely travel back east. very successful -- roughly half of the kids selected in the whl bantam draft now come from these schools, and they feed a ton of kids into the bchl (the #2 path to ncaa d1 after ushl. kids "get seen", get great hockey development, decent to great academics (depending on the school), with an all-in cost similar to an la private school education.
its only a matter of time until this comes to socal. i know parent groups that have investigated doing it themselves. kings and ducks ought to take the lead, as they are parts of billion dollar organizations that have the resources to pull this off. until then, we will continue to see a parade of kids leave to join programs like this in other places.
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There are at least three hockey academies that opened in Orange County this season.
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There are at least three hockey academies that opened in Orange County this season.
Which 3? I know of KHS Academy and Optimum Hockey Academy. What's the 3rd one?
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I believe there is one called West Coast, also out of
The Great Park...
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the academies that succeed will need to offer real academics, teachers and facilities (classrooms, science labs, etc.), and a social component (interactions with non-hockey kids, incl. girls). "academics" of 3 hours a day at a computer in a windowless room at the rink is bullshit. a partnership between great park ice and the nearby and new portola high could be interesting.
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I have friends that have send their kids to "academy's" that consist of a rink and a back room where their kids to high school work online.
The only parents that want that are those that are delusional about their kids chances.
It takes time for *real* academies to be built, along the lines of actual east coast prep schools, and hockey is 'just another sport' to them.
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Ok Bantam parents, you need to realize that by junior year of HS, your kid’s workload will be such that those long commutes to practice will really impact their schoolwork, and those late ice slots Midgets get will just make things harder. Add in all the travel for games and tourneys... and wow. Prep school offers a balance to those of us not blessed with a rink around the corner or best bud who runs a hockey program. It’s hard to see the reality when your kids are young and so full of optimism.
Without more ice in CA, kids will always leave.
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Looking for confirmation on scores from this weekend. Two game went to 0-0 ties. 8)
Jr. Gulls (2)5 - Jr. Ducks (2)2
Jr. Reign (1) --- Flyers—
Saints4 - Bears (1)0
Empire HC7 - Jr. Reign (2)0
Bears (2)0 - Jr. Gulls (1)0
Jr. Kings (1)0 - Jr Condors1
Jr. Kings (2)0 - Ice Dogs8
Wave0 - OC Hockey0
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I don't think the scores on scaha are complete yet or even accurate. Yesterday, it showed Jr Gulls(2) beat Jr Ducks(2) 15-0 which seemed impossible to believe. Now showing 5-2. And Jr Kings(1) beat the Condors 4-1, not a 1-0 loss.
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Looking for confirmation on scores from this weekend. Two game went to 0-0 ties. 8)
Jr. Gulls (2)5 - Jr. Ducks (2)2
Jr. Reign (1) --- Flyers—
Saints4 - Bears (1)0
Empire HC7 - Jr. Reign (2)0
Bears (2)0 - Jr. Gulls (1)0
Jr. Kings (1)0 - Jr Condors1
Jr. Kings (2)0 - Ice Dogs8
Wave0 - OC Hockey0
I think Bantam AA OCHC tied Bantam AA Wave 4-4...
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I heard Flyers beat Reign(1) either 9-1 or 10-1....both Reign Teams should be in Bantam A....at best.
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Let the excuses and accusations of conspiracy fly!
Flight 1
Bears(1)
Bears(2)
Eagles(1)
Eagles(2)
Jr. Ducks(1)
Jr. Flyers
Jr. Ice Dogs
Jr. Kings(1)
Saints
Flight 2
Blackhawks
Empire
Jr. Condors
Jr. Ducks(2)
Jr. Gulls(1)
Jr. Gulls(2)
Jr. Kings(2)
Jr. Reign(1)
Jr. Sharks
OC Hockey
Wave
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I'll start, both GSE teams should not have made flight1. Gulls2 and Wave should have. But they had to split up the Norcal team to get Nocal CAHA weekends. F*CK CAHA, it's all about the money and not the best product. >:(
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Really, the only major issue I see is the Wave being Flight 2. Not saying all the flight 1 teams should be obvious choices but you can at least make an argument for them...the Wave being Flight 2 though is :o
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More Wave hating. Battle Wave! Prove your prognosticators wrong.
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Heard GULLS(1) beat BEARS(2) by a score of 5-0 on the weekend.....is that the case?? CAHA can't possibly be that far out to lunch!!
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Here’s a link showing the 2019 – 2020 CAHA divisions and the teams in each flight/division. As of now, it’s not showing the schedule.
https://stats.caha.timetoscore.com/display-stats?league=17 (https://stats.caha.timetoscore.com/display-stats?league=17)
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Say F*CK CAHA three times and guess who will show up?!?!
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Say F*CK CAHA three times and guess who will show up?!?!
Ben Frank?
He owes trans money
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My prior comments on the AA system are numerous. I agree about the Wave. I really don't know why they were dropped when they could have had 10 teams in Flight1 per the Flighting rules.
I believe that after last season, CAHA was not eager to put any of the primarily '06 teams into Flight 1, especially if those teams aren't named Kings or Ducks. I didn't see more than a few minutes of one of their games, but as an '06 team, it was going to be an uphill battle for Gulls2 unless they were undeniably a better team than at least 5 other teams in Flight1.
Every season since the inception of it, Flighting has screwed over 2-4 flight 2 teams not because they would beat everyone in Flight1, but simply that they are good enough to play competitive games with the lower to mid flight1 teams, but will be denied the chance. That wasn't supposed to be the role of CAHA.
As they didn't Flight any division other than Bantam, it seems like the writing is on the wall, that the clubs themselves must be fighting the system to the degree that there was no appetite for it.
The irony is that Bantam AA has 2 AAA teams this year, which makes it even less reasonable to exclude teams by flighting with such a huge gap between the top 2 and everyone else in AA. The really sad part is that the teams from 3-16 are probably closer to each other than in any season I can remember. If not for the top 2, it would be a really interesting and competitive AA season.
All you can do is make the best of wherever you are even if you got served a shit sandwich. The problem is that there are still people who buy into the basic premise of flighting which helps perpetuate it. I don't blame the CAHA board for that. I do blame them for losing sight of the fact that they are administrators for a league, and not evaluators of competitive competency. The minute they started listening to knucklehead parents with inflated egos and superiority complexes was the minute that CAHA lost sight of its reason for being.
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DING! DING! DING!
Icadad has hit the nail on the head:
I do blame them (CAHA) for losing sight of the fact that they are administrators for a league, and not evaluators of competitive competency.
Nicely stated, sir. Agree 100%. But just so we have all the ugly facts, let's remember that hundreds of families were FORCED by this governing body of administrators to travel to San Jose (the hockey minority market), which meant more than a third of these families had to drive or fly and stay at a hotel spending hundreds of dollars, if not thousands. Great. So what were the results of this manufactured Labor Day money grab quasi-tourney of 4 runtime games? Three of the four divisions are not flighted. Um, excuse me? Are you serious? You idiots dragged us up to that suburb-gone-wild and then you don't even flight three of the four divisions? Are you fucking nuts? Congrats, CAHA, you've earned your 1st F*CK CAHA.
Let's continue, though. Of the one division that did get flighted (Bantam), I'm sure CAHA got that correct, right? I'm sure that split was very obvious, right? Nope. Completely fucked that one too.
Now, all season, we have to stare at the bullshit Bantam flighting breakdown that is a glaring reminder of CAHA's consistent bias, vague policies, and shady underhandedness. Oh, and instead of making it a 10/10 split, which is logical, the split is 9/11?! I mean, come on, boys. It's like you're punishing yourselves now.
But then the split was probably obvious, right? It's was totally clear to everyone, right? Nope. Not at all. CAHA just can't help from doing everything ass backwards and putting their hypocrisy on center stage with bright lights and glitter.
Let's take a look. And upon quick analysis of those 9 teams put into Flight 1, 4 teams (Bears(2), Flyers, GSE(1), and GSE(2)) had a WORSE showing at the Evaluation Weekend than the Wave. But don't believe me, let's look at the games and stats:
BEARS(2)
Bears(2) 2 Kings(2) 1
Bears(2) 2 Wave 2
Bears(2) 0 Ducks(1) 2
Bears(2) 0 Kings(1) 1
RECORD 1-2-1 (4 GF/6 GA)
Note: They lost 2 games to Flight 1 teams, tied a Flight 2 team, and beat a Flight 2 team.
FLYERS
Flyers 3 Ice Dogs 7
Flyers 0 Bears(1) 10
Flyers 7 GSE(2) 2
Flyers 3 Gulls(1) 0
RECORD 2-2 (13 GF/19 GA)
Note: They lost 2 games badly to Flight 1 teams, beat a weak Flight 1 team, and beat a bad Flight 2 team.
GSE(1)
GSE(1) 4 OCHC 2
GSE(1) 2 Blackhawks 2
GSE(1) 0 Saints 3
GSE(1) 5 Reign(1) 0
RECORD 2-1-1 (11GF/7 GA)
Note: They lost the lone Flight 1 team they faced, beat two Flight 2 teams, and tied a bad Flight 2 team.
GSE(2)
GSE(2) 4 Gulls(1) 3
GSE(2) 10 Ducks(2) 1
GSE(2) 1 Bears(1) 9
GSE(2) 2 Flyers 7
RECORD 2-2 (17 GF/20 GA)
Note: They lost badly to the two Flight 1 teams they faced and beat two bad Flight 2 teams, and only one convincingly.
Wave
Wave 1 Condors 0
Wave 2 Bears(2) 2
Wave 0 Gulls(2) 1
Wave 2 Ice Dogs 0
RECORD 2-1-1 (5 GF/3 GA)
Note: They beat a top Flight 1 team, tied a Flight 1 team, beat a Flight 2 team, and lost to a Flight 2 team (arguably the best remaining Flight 2 team).
So, of course, the logical result is that the Wave doesn't belong and it's better to go with a 9/11 split than a 10/10 split. What?!? Congrats, CAHA! You have earned your 2nd F*CK CAHA!
But let's be fair, let's look at who exactly evaluated these games. Certainly these people were unbiased experts with full knowledge of the teams and the divisions, right? I'm sure their sole focus was to get it right, right? That CAHA had done their job and found the people who can break this division in half in the fairest and most honest way, right? No. Of course not.
The evaluators were coaches from other divisions who learned as they arrived for the weekend that they were evaluating games. Oh, and I'm sure they weren't distracted by their own games, players or parents, right? Or influenced by their club's needs and desires (hello GSE!!!), right? Good lord, CAHA. Another well thought out, smooth-as-grease idea.
Congrats, you've quickly earned your 3rd and final F*CK CAHA!
As objectively proven over and over again on this forum, CAHA stinks from the top down. It starts with the #1 Boob himself President Tom Hancock and his merry Board of Dunderheads. These people have spent a lifetime overreaching, enforcing biases, favoring friends, repaying grudges, and undermining the purity of the sport for their own financial and political gain. It's wrong. It's grotesque. And with every opportunity this group has to be a mature, measured, logical, fair governing body... they do the opposite.
It's sad. And lame. And nothing this group at CAHA does anymore is surprising.
P.S. After I mined the CAHA minutes to learn the story behind the AAA consolidation and power grab, CAHA stopped posting the minutes. Nice one, boys. Way to keep it honest.
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It seems someone chose to remove my post from yesterday. Hmmm, :o .
Does anyone know if there is any update regarding this lawsuit:
https://www.chicagobusiness.com/news/hockeys-surge-popularity-pushes-sports-gatekeepers-court
CAHA will keep doing this crap until parents and families collectively say, enough!
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Congrats, CAHA, you've earned your 1st F*CK CAHA.
So, of course, the logical result is that the Wave doesn't belong and it's better to go with a 9/11 split than a 10/10 split. What?!? Congrats, CAHA! You have earned your 2nd F*CK CAHA!
unbiased experts? No. Of course not.
The evaluator's were coaches from other divisions who learned as they arrived for the weekend that they were evaluating games. Good lord, CAHA. Another well thought out, smooth-as-grease idea. Congrats, you've quickly earned your 3rd and final F*CK CAHA!
As objectively proven over and over again on this forum, CAHA stinks from the top down. It starts with the #1 Boob himself President Tom Hancock and his merry Board of Dunderheads.
P.S. After I mined the CAHA minutes to learn the story behind the AAA consolidation and power grab, CAHA stopped posting the minutes. Nice one, boys. Way to keep it honest.
(deleted some JackBender comments quoted above, solely to save space)
Jack Bender,
IMO, you are being much to nice. Can see at least 2 or 3 more F*ck CAHAs just in your words above.
What about possible grudge and bias? Didn't the CA Wave have to play a mandatory play-in game last year? Making parents and families incur incredible expense, as they were out of country. My understanding is there was no flexibility, 100% mandatory game on that date and time, true?
Is it possible this year, "powers that be" are making the Wave organization "pay"?
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Rhetorical question, right? How about the homer refs of CAHA? The minions of the CAHA board? With agenda.
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For those interested, there is a CAHA Board Meeting scheduled for 9/21 in El Segundo. ;)
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Hmm... does GrubHub deliver flaming bags of shit?
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Hmm... does GrubHub deliver slamming bags of shit?
No, I think McDonald's uses Uber Eats.
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I actually thought the wave got hosed until I read your argument. You actually pushed me over to the other side.
By your own reasoning, Bears 2 are not a solid flight one team. Wave tied them.
The gulls you call a flight two team to undermine the flyers. Bears 2 lost to them 0-5. Wave tied the team that lost to a middle flight two team by five goals. Your case is partially correct, but by dragging down other teams that you need to build yourself up, I think you inadvertently undercut your own argument.
GSEs were not superpowers but they looked good in the games I saw.
And if number of shots is a big deal for the Condors who played lower teams you’d better find a way to level that for anyone who played the saints or big Bears.
I get that it pissed you off, but pissing on the system is better than pissing on the kids that you think don’t deserve to be where they are. They do. And if they don’t, the wave has no case at all.
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I don't have an argument, I just presented the facts.
Wave also beat Bears(2) 4-1 before the weekend.
And you don't mention the Ice Dogs win, the #3 team in the State. Bears(2) played the Ice Dogs before the weekend, losing 8-1. Flyers lost to the Ice Dogs 7-3. The Wave beat the Ice Dogs 2-0.
Those are simply facts. Draw your own conclusion.
Between the Flyers, Bears(2), and both GSE teams, the Wave was the ONLY team to beat a Flight 1 team. And they also tied one. Again, those are the facts. Yet, CAHA put them at Flight 2, saying that they are not good enough to be in Flight 1... even though they were the only team to beat a Flight 1 team. To add insult to injury, they left the 10th Flight 1 spot open.
Still uncertain if the Wave got hosed?
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To add to the mix: Wave tied OC this weekend 4 all. How does that add to the equation?
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Irrelevant. It wasn't part of the evaluation.
Bears(2) also lost 5-0 to Gulls(1) this weekend. If anything, it only proves that AA is a two team race. Every other team is wildly inconsistent. But based on the unbiased numbers, if those other teams are Flight 1, then so are the Wave.
Unless, you know, you're CAHA and logic and fairness is not part of the evaluation process.
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No I think the Wave got hosed, but the point is that it's a systemic problem and not one of evaluation and some other team taking the Wave's spot. I personally felt the Wave deserved a Flight1 slot this season but they clearly aren't markedly better than any of the other teams you profiled. On a particular day, they might win or lose, and for that reason, they should be in Flight1 but aren't for reasons nobody outside of the evaluation committee knows.
It may be cold comfort, but this same thing has happened to numerous other teams the last 2 seasons. When people are obsessing about scrimmages, pre-season games, and aggregate shots against totals, none of which the CAHA evaluators consider, it's just another example of how this system punishes coaches, parents and players.
For 3 seasons now I've seen the toll this takes on the psyche of the participants and the disruption it has caused to teams and programs. Rather than focusing on development, training and end season goals, Tier2 begins with this stressful evaluation which robs everyone of the pre-season tournament that clubs enjoyed for years, and involves stress, injuries and heartbreaking disappointment for many of the participants, literally before the season has even begun.
It's fostered resentment and infighting amongst the various clubs, which only serves to poison the entire community. It may sound trite to some, but respect for your opponents and valuing them for the competition they provide was stressed to me growing up. It's a fundamental tenet of the positive coaching alliance among other youth sport organizations.
At this point, my son has played at one time or another with a lot of kids on different teams and knows even more from hockey camps and clinics he's attended. The kid you play against this season might be your teammate next year, or someone who becomes a close friend away from the rink. Yes, the system is poorly implemented, biased and inherently mean spirited and frequently very unfair, but it's actually far worse than that, in terms of what it has been doing to the youth hockey community in California. For many of my friends, when we talk about CAHA, it's about how our kids can or will escape it either by outgrowing it or playing hockey in some other state.
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Yes. Very well stated on an emotional level. This element gets lost in a lot of the debates.
I know kids at PW and Bantam who have quit hockey in their major year because their teams didn't make Flight 1. They quit hockey. Quit. I'm pretty sure that is not within the USA Hockey mandate of "expanding the game," and I'm pretty sure they'd be horrified to learn it was a side effect of the flighting system. Even one kid quitting for something as trivial as that is wrong.
The system might have been well intentioned, but it stinks. We'll see if the powers that be do the right thing.
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No. The OC game kind of took that off the table.
I know you’re mad. All you can see is injustice. I don’t mind that you select your favorite games but it certainly didn’t help your case if you tied OC. Unless you have another great comparison that makes that result not representative of your team.
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Ice Dogs.
And Head-to-Head.
"Wave also beat Bears(2) 4-1 before the weekend. And you don't mention the Ice Dogs win, the #3 team in the State. Bears(2) played the Ice Dogs before the weekend, losing 8-1. Flyers lost to the Ice Dogs 7-3. The Wave beat the Ice Dogs 2-0."
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It would seem that Bender has a point there.
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Landshark, I assume your opinion would differ if your Flyers had been placed in Flight 2, arguably where they belong after their Jamboree performance.
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Congrats on the defeat of the great Machine JackBender!
Better stock up on vaseline and redbull now. I see a "FUN" schedule and some 9pm/7am games coming your way!
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Kudos to CAHA. It was the right thing to do.
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Bender, I'm not sure I'd put that win up as the crown jewel of my argument. Looking at the stats on that game (thanks again Hockeykid), Ice Dogs outshot you 21-5. No denying you got the win, but the Ice Dogs may have played a bad game, or your goalie stood on his head, or Ice Dogs didn't play the run clock, or any combination of that or any other thing. I can only judge by the score sheet, but they outshot you by a lot. That said though, I agree Wave got hosed. Wave has every right to claim they should be flight 1 when you have Bears(2) and Flyers in it. Insult to injury, they only put 9 teams in flight 1. Caha got it wrong, just as they did last year. The top 4 teams in flight 2 (Kings(1), Saints, Ducks(1), Flyers) could have easily exchanged with the bottom 4 of flight 1 and had a chance to play for more than 8th seed. Playing for 8th seed only to get blown out by the top teams is a bad system. Add to that they didn't even have a playoffs for flight 2 last year, and the plight of flight 2 only gets worse.
Caha did the right thing in Peewee and forced 6 teams down to A and didn't flight it. Nor did they flight Midgets. It sounded like they were finally getting it right. They could have dropped the bottom 3-4 teams and not flight Bantam, but that would have included 2 NHL franchises, and that's never going to happen. It took a lot to get the Jr Sharks to drop to A last year. Maybe that included some back room deals saying it wouldn't happen this year, I don't know. They will have a rough season, and it will suck for all So Cal teams going up to NorCal to blow them out. I don't know NorCal coaches and organizations, but how can a franchise that made it to round 3 of SCF not attract better coaching? They should have coaches and kids fighting to get in. When you can't manage to put together strong AA teams for years, it's time to take a hard look at their program and restructure.
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He does.
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I assume you are a person of great consequence, so how can I argue?
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First the wave should be their 1. Second you have couches rating games. The same couch’s that draft teams and call them aa tear1. When they should be bb. How can you have a couch evaluate talent, When they can’t even draft a team for themselves that’s aa level. I Think it time to clean house and vote all Caha and scaha members out. If not maybe the irs should be called in to look into the money they receive from clubs that they don’t report as income. That will get them out of office and maybe in jail. That’s what they deserve for hurting kids. They hurt the wave kids. 2 wins one lose one tie and made tier 2. Lol. And you say shot on goal are goals scored. Last nhl game I watch the score was 2-1 so are you telling me that they need to score more. Y’all are idiots if you rate a team that wins poorly because the score wasn’t 10-9. Next going to Northern California to play hockey is a joke. Divide California into two leagues. The top two from norther and southern Cali can play for a state tittle. Next the super teams in youth hockey are stupid. If you want to fix that make people play at there home rinks. Let say the rink must be within 30 miles of there home. Do like back east you can only play for two clubs if you burn bridges than your out of hockey. The kings have a good ex player number 19 I vote for him to be the head of youth hockey in southern Cali. At least he has the kids best interest. He wants them to play for the love of the game. Not for the dream of nhl. So irs please look into all board members I bet they don’t report any money paid to them. Again they are idiots who only do good things for the teams that pay them. Ps wave tied oc had 3 players out. Broken wrist, broken toe,and a hip problem. And they still did not lose. I’m going to take my kid to the wave next year. They seam to get it done. To bad the league hates them.
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That guy is cut off
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First the wave should be their 1. Second you have couches rating games. The same couch’s that draft teams and call them aa tear1. When they should be bb. How can you have a couch evaluate talent, When they can’t even draft a team for themselves that’s aa level. I Think it time to clean house and vote all Caha and scaha members out. If not maybe the irs should be called in to look into the money they receive from clubs that they don’t report as income. That will get them out of office and maybe in jail. That’s what they deserve for hurting kids. They hurt the wave kids. 2 wins one lose one tie and made tier 2. Lol. And you say shot on goal are goals scored. Last nhl game I watch the score was 2-1 so are you telling me that they need to score more. Y’all are idiots if you rate a team that wins poorly because the score wasn’t 10-9. Next going to Northern California to play hockey is a joke. Divide California into two leagues. The top two from norther and southern Cali can play for a state tittle. Next the super teams in youth hockey are stupid. If you want to fix that make people play at there home rinks. Let say the rink must be within 30 miles of there home. Do like back east you can only play for two clubs if you burn bridges than your out of hockey. The kings have a good ex player number 19 I vote for him to be the head of youth hockey in southern Cali. At least he has the kids best interest. He wants them to play for the love of the game. Not for the dream of nhl. So irs please look into all board members I bet they don’t report any money paid to them. Again they are idiots who only do good things for the teams that pay them. Ps wave tied oc had 3 players out. Broken wrist, broken toe,and a hip problem. And they still did not lose. I’m going to take my kid to the wave next year. They seam to get it done. To bad the league hates them.
Don't know about you, but I personally find Hockeylife's first post:
A) The refreshingly bold and honest Official CAHA Response
OR
B) It's nice to hear from the President of The CA Wave Hockey Club
OR
C) A certain good ex-player, #19, has finally joined Calhockey
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First the wave should be their 1. Second you have couches rating games. The same couch’s that draft teams and call them aa tear1. When they should be bb. How can you have a couch evaluate talent, When they can’t even draft a team for themselves that’s aa level. I Think it time to clean house and vote all Caha and scaha members out. If not maybe the irs should be called in to look into the money they receive from clubs that they don’t report as income. That will get them out of office and maybe in jail. That’s what they deserve for hurting kids. They hurt the wave kids. 2 wins one lose one tie and made tier 2. Lol. And you say shot on goal are goals scored. Last nhl game I watch the score was 2-1 so are you telling me that they need to score more. Y’all are idiots if you rate a team that wins poorly because the score wasn’t 10-9. Next going to Northern California to play hockey is a joke. Divide California into two leagues. The top two from norther and southern Cali can play for a state tittle. Next the super teams in youth hockey are stupid. If you want to fix that make people play at there home rinks. Let say the rink must be within 30 miles of there home. Do like back east you can only play for two clubs if you burn bridges than your out of hockey. The kings have a good ex player number 19 I vote for him to be the head of youth hockey in southern Cali. At least he has the kids best interest. He wants them to play for the love of the game. Not for the dream of nhl. So irs please look into all board members I bet they don’t report any money paid to them. Again they are idiots who only do good things for the teams that pay them. Ps wave tied oc had 3 players out. Broken wrist, broken toe,and a hip problem. And they still did not lose. I’m going to take my kid to the wave next year. They seam to get it done. To bad the league hates them.
Bad spelling, bad grammar , brought a tear to my eye. Is this the reincarnation of Zam ?
Has the Russian gag order been withdrawn ?
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I don't know. But that was fun to read.
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Wave moved to flight 1.
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Wave moved to flight 1.
Probably the funniest thing about Hockeylife's post.
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Something has gotten lost in the debate over flighting, which is this: what should the standard be for AA? I don’t know anywhere that CAHA has expressly set that out, although I suppose you can infer from the Mission Statement that an AA team is supposed to be competitive for the championship. But what has happened is that each year we seem to debate which bubble team that did not get in got screwed because it was similar to a bubble team that did get in. Icadad even argued that the standard should be whether a team is competitive with the low and middle teams. That strikes me as too low and as a slippery slope: with every team added that standard drops and the division gets weaker. Just a couple weeks ago, the thread was up in arms over Top AA talent leaving California. Well, who do you think you were talking about? When you look for the next wave of top AA kids who are poised to leave, look no further than Bears 1 and the Saints. Maybe instead of factoring them out of the analysis for flighting, we should have thought about doing everything we could do get them to stay. I am pretty sure that the answer wasn’t adding more games against bubble teams.
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That strikes me as too low and as a slippery slope: with every team added that standard drops and the division gets weaker. Just a couple weeks ago, the thread was up in arms over Top AA talent leaving California. Well, who do you think you were talking about? When you look for the next wave of top AA kids who are poised to leave, look no further than Bears 1 and the Saints. Maybe instead of factoring them out of the analysis for flighting, we should have thought about doing everything we could do get them to stay. I am pretty sure that the answer wasn’t adding more games against bubble teams.
The problem is that the 2 teams you are talking about are AAA teams playing AA. This makes AA a division where Flight1 teams are teams that "can keep from getting beaten really badly by the top teams." Sure there are occasions when the AA teams pull off a David slew Goliath type upset, but there always seems to be 1 or 2 AA teams that are out of reach of the rest of the pack. Take one or 2 of those teams out of AA, and you have a very different experience for the rest of the teams
Bantam AA 2016-2017 (Pre Flight year)
Bears 21-1-0 GD: 129
Sharks 19-2-2 GD: 137
Bantam AA 2017-2018
Bears 22-0-1 GD: 126
GSE 2 13-7-5 GD: 4
Bantam AA 2018-2019
Bears(1) 19-3-0 GD: 91
Saints(1) 15-5-1 GD: 32
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First the wave should be their 1. Second you have couches rating games. The same couch’s that draft teams and call them aa tear1. When they should be bb. How can you have a couch evaluate talent, When they can’t even draft a team for themselves that’s aa level. I Think it time to clean house and vote all Caha and scaha members out. If not maybe the irs should be called in to look into the money they receive from clubs that they don’t report as income. That will get them out of office and maybe in jail. That’s what they deserve for hurting kids. They hurt the wave kids. 2 wins one lose one tie and made tier 2. Lol. And you say shot on goal are goals scored. Last nhl game I watch the score was 2-1 so are you telling me that they need to score more. Y’all are idiots if you rate a team that wins poorly because the score wasn’t 10-9. Next going to Northern California to play hockey is a joke. Divide California into two leagues. The top two from norther and southern Cali can play for a state tittle. Next the super teams in youth hockey are stupid. If you want to fix that make people play at there home rinks. Let say the rink must be within 30 miles of there home. Do like back east you can only play for two clubs if you burn bridges than your out of hockey. The kings have a good ex player number 19 I vote for him to be the head of youth hockey in southern Cali. At least he has the kids best interest. He wants them to play for the love of the game. Not for the dream of nhl. So irs please look into all board members I bet they don’t report any money paid to them. Again they are idiots who only do good things for the teams that pay them. Ps wave tied oc had 3 players out. Broken wrist, broken toe,and a hip problem. And they still did not lose. I’m going to take my kid to the wave next year. They seam to get it done. To bad the league hates them.
One thing my mom used to tell me that made no sense at the time but that makes a lot of sense now that I’m older, is that “they†(corrupt/incompetent/bad people) don’t stop until they hit a wall. Meaning that if CAHA personnel and board members are more interested in money and power than in developing hockey players, or even if they’re simply incompetent, they’re not going to change, even if parents complain nonstop. Why? Because we’re all still paying into the system, i.e. they haven’t hit a wall. They may change a rule to appease a few people, or release a PR statement about listening to the parents blah blah blah, but I do think that once an incompetent or greedy group of people goes down the road of chasing money and power, it’s very hard if not impossible to turn them around without extremely major personnel changes.I’m wondering if one way to fix California club hockey is to reapportion the board membership so that a majority of seats on the board are held by individual clubs other than the big three. AND no club can have more than one member on the board. Also, the CAHA website should state in greater detail who these board members are, including what their specific relationship to hockey is, what club they are or have been associated with – whatever information is relevant to parents knowing what their biases might be. But it's absolutely essential to have extremely major personnel changes on the board. Nothing else will work. California hockey is broken, and the people who broke it should not be in charge.
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"One thing my mom used to tell me that made no sense at the time but that makes a lot of sense now that I’m older, is that “they†(corrupt/incompetent/bad people) don’t stop until they hit a wall. Meaning that if CAHA personnel and board members are more interested in money and power than in developing hockey players, or even if they’re simply incompetent, they’re not going to change, even if parents complain nonstop. Why? Because we’re all still paying into the system, i.e. they haven’t hit a wall. They may change a rule to appease a few people, or release a PR statement about listening to the parents blah blah blah, but I do think that once an incompetent or greedy group of people goes down the road of chasing money and power, it’s very hard if not impossible to turn them around without extremely major personnel changes.I’m wondering if one way to fix California club hockey is to reapportion the board membership so that a majority of seats on the board are held by individual clubs other than the big three. AND no club can have more than one member on the board. Also, the CAHA website should state in greater detail who these board members are, including what their specific relationship to hockey is, what club they are or have been associated with – whatever information is relevant to parents knowing what their biases might be. But it's absolutely essential to have extremely major personnel changes on the board. Nothing else will work. California hockey is broken, and the people who broke it should not be in charge."
We gave up on California club hockey. Not sure I could say it is only about money and power; perhaps it about imposing one's vision of hockey correctness, a kissing cousin of political correctness.
If one cannot influence the system, then one needs to seek out other alternatives if your son loves ice hockey.
There is another alternative to Prep School or accepting the dysfunctions of CAHA hockey and that is playing HS Division 1 as a 9th grader or Bantam major. It is a lot cheaper than AAA and a little less money than AA. It fits into a commitment to academics far better than either tier1 or 2 hockey. There is a lot less time wasted on freeways, which is import once homework increases and becomes critical to university admissions. Varsity level of play offers more, faster. and perhaps better competition than Flight 1 of BNAA. There are more games and more competitive games during a season. An unexpected bonus is our son had 7 real games on Labor Day weekend; we did not have to drive to N. California for a bad imitation of hockey that is the Jamboree and the varsity games are 17 minute periods, which means a lot more ice time. Last weekend there were 4 exhibition games. 11 games in two weekends! Another bonus is that practices are maybe the best in 8 years of playing hockey. Div 1 and Div 2 are attracting the best coaches in So. California.
This is an option that AA Bantam majors should consider and it might be a good fit and an alternative for even some AAA players who value academics over hockey. Just as nearly all roads lead to the "beer league" eventually, the most likely road leads to HS over club hockey for most but the most affluent and talented hockey players by Midget. Why not start a year early as a Bantam major?
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Sooo True HS. We have one that decided to quit for other sport and one in AD High School system. It has been SUCH an improvement in experience (on every issue) and that is why it continues to blossom. Back to true developing and having fun. And never look back, except to confirm our decision and shake our heads as to why folks continue on the train. Like staying in a bad job.
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Disagree. High School hockey is goonery with few skilled players. This has been my consistent, proven experience even with Division 1 So Cal HS Hockey. High School players who also play club play the same glaring way. Don't waste your time.
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Disagree. High School hockey is goonery with few skilled players. This has been my consistent, proven experience even with Division 1 So Cal HS Hockey. High School players who also play club play the same glaring way. Don't waste your time.
As a rule, the less skilled a player is, the more of a goon they are because they have nothing else. HS is full of less skilled players...
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Does anyone know or heard of any teams getting relegated from tier 2 down to "A"? I just watched the Bears 1 vs. Empire 06'.......painful to say the least.
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Disagree. High School hockey is goonery with few skilled players. This has been my consistent, proven experience even with Division 1 So Cal HS Hockey. High School players who also play club play the same glaring way. Don't waste your time.
Don't know for sure you are responding to my advocacy of D-1 HS as an option over CAHA or prep school but the "goonery" comment is somewhat subjective. At last season's SCAHA or CAHA Selects camp, a parent complained to me about the "goonery" of a AA player directed at his son, a AAA player, who was hurt. I have observed both players and both are excellent players; both made Pacific Selects. I remember the play in question and it was not "goonery." It was a hard competitive play. If anything it was a sense of entitlement of some SoCal AAA parents. Implicit: How dare my son be checked hard! And by a AA player!
My preliminary observation is that D-1 is faster and slightly less skilled than the best of AA Bantams, AAA, or Selects. D-1 may be more physical but that has more to do with the fact that a 14 year old is playing with and against 15-18 year olds. My initial observation is not the play of other players but the inconsistency of how fouls are called but that is a problem at all age groups and levels of play.
But maybe the key point is that D-1 and D-2 havd many of the best coaches in So Cal; coaches who do not teach goon hockey. Teen athletes an be emotional and intense on the field of play whether that is a rink, a soccer field, or a football field.
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I am not talking about one observation. I am talking about several observations, as in a trend. I don't have an issue with checking at all. It is the consistency with which ckecking is done not to take the puck at all and if a check can be administered with the opposition in a vulnerable position, then all the more it seems to be done. The AA player you mentioned probably plays high school hockey too.
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Is there any truth that some current California AA teams are either beating or at least competitive with California AAA teams at the bantam level? If this is the case I am not sure why AAA parents would be surprised by the skill level, toughness, or competitiveness of AA kids.
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Is there any truth that some current California AA teams are either beating or at least competitive with California AAA teams at the bantam level? If this is the case I am not sure why AAA parents would be surprised by the skill level, toughness, or competitiveness of AA kids.
Most AAA parents literally never watch a AA game after their little McDavid turns 10 and becomes one of the anointed, so it's inconceivable to them that there could be any good AA players. That said, every year there’s talk among AA parents about this or that AA team “really†being a AAA team and the hype is rarely true. The last one I can remember that was a legit AAA team was Bears 03.
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Does anyone know or heard of any teams getting relegated from tier 2 down to "A"? I just watched the Bears 1 vs. Empire 06'.......painful to say the least.
I think that they have already done that. Empire was not dropped but made flight 2.
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Is there any truth that some current California AA teams are either beating or at least competitive with California AAA teams at the bantam level? If this is the case I am not sure why AAA parents would be surprised by the skill level, toughness, or competitiveness of AA kids.
Most AAA parents literally never watch a AA game after their little McDavid turns 10 and becomes one of the anointed, so it's inconceivable to them that there could be any good AA players. That said, every year there’s talk among AA parents about this or that AA team “really†being a AAA team and the hype is rarely true. The last one I can remember that was a legit AAA team was Bears 03.
Guess rarely is every other year because Bears(1) beat Ducks 06AAA 8-2 two weeks ago and then beat Ducks 05AAA 4-2 this past weekend. Oh, and they're not even the best AA team in the state as the Saints tied Bears(1) at the Jamboree 2-2 and then beat them in the first preseason game 4-1. Both teams are loaded with AAA talent and will make a serious run at Nationals.
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I wasn't going to write anything about this, but I've been expecting a tipping point where my predictions about the way the AAA and AA divisions have effected the youth hockey scene, and the scarcity of AAA opportunity would eventually take us to the place we are at, where there are 2 AA teams that can beat 2 of the 3 California AAA teams AT AGE GROUP, and possibly even beat all 3.
Kids in AA don't have it easy when they play AA in their minor year, and there are an awful lot of kids in AA who have done that. There's also an awful lot of defections. Everyone knows there are kids in AA who could make their way onto a AAA roster if they showed up for a tryout. Conversely, you have an awful lot of AAA families deciding to play AA now even down into the U12 division, as they question the travel and expense of the AAA system here.
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Is there any truth that some current California AA teams are either beating or at least competitive with California AAA teams at the bantam level? If this is the case I am not sure why AAA parents would be surprised by the skill level, toughness, or competitiveness of AA kids.
Most AAA parents literally never watch a AA game after their little McDavid turns 10 and becomes one of the anointed, so it's inconceivable to them that there could be any good AA players. That said, every year there’s talk among AA parents about this or that AA team “really†being a AAA team and the hype is rarely true. The last one I can remember that was a legit AAA team was Bears 03.
Guess rarely is every other year because Bears(1) beat Ducks 06AAA 8-2 two weeks ago and then beat Ducks 05AAA 4-2 this past weekend. Oh, and they're not even the best AA team in the state as the Saints tied Bears(1) at the Jamboree 2-2 and then beat them in the first preseason game 4-1. Both teams are loaded with AAA talent and will make a serious run at Nationals.
Another factor in addition to the talent on the BNAA Bears I and Saints is the high quality of the coaching. Like their players, the coaches are as good or better than their AAA counterparts.
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Is there any truth that some current California AA teams are either beating or at least competitive with California AAA teams at the bantam level? If this is the case I am not sure why AAA parents would be surprised by the skill level, toughness, or competitiveness of AA kids.
Most AAA parents literally never watch a AA game after their little McDavid turns 10 and becomes one of the anointed, so it's inconceivable to them that there could be any good AA players. That said, every year there’s talk among AA parents about this or that AA team “really†being a AAA team and the hype is rarely true. The last one I can remember that was a legit AAA team was Bears 03.
Guess rarely is every other year because Bears(1) beat Ducks 06AAA 8-2 two weeks ago and then beat Ducks 05AAA 4-2 this past weekend. Oh, and they're not even the best AA team in the state as the Saints tied Bears(1) at the Jamboree 2-2 and then beat them in the first preseason game 4-1. Both teams are loaded with AAA talent and will make a serious run at Nationals.
Another factor in addition to the talent on the BNAA Bears I and Saints is the high quality of the coaching. Like their players, the coaches are as good or better than their AAA counterparts.
Forget if they should, could either the bears or saints meet the CAHA requirements for a AAA team? I dont think so. Regarding the Ducks losing to Bears1...have you seen the Bears1 roster? How many AAA kids are now on that team? Plus, the Ducks AAA lost a ton of kids...and their best players. So, why is that score surprising? Saints have been together for years - have great coaching and a plan to get their kids exposure. These 2 teams are the exception, not the rule when comparing AAA to AA.
Would be curious to see how many kids of people on here who bash AAA actually played AAA...or even are currently playing AAA. As a parent of a kid who actually did play AAA for a year, then didnt make the team. I can tell you the biggest difference is how serious all of the kids / parents take it compared to AA. In California hockey is stupid - way too expensive, way too much driving...I am fine with both if my son is getting the most out of his experience and is taking it serious. I am not interested in play time with his buddies, if that is what he wants then he can go play in the shithole rink 50 minutes closer to home. Is AAA perfect - hell no, ton of issues. But at least 99% of the parents are on the same page about the commitment vs AA where its 50% if you are lucky.
It all goes back to do what is best or your kids (AAA, AA, A, B, tennis) and f*ck what anyone else thinks.
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Wow! Many Broad Brush Strokes in that post! I am sure you will receive many replies on all that you touched on. Commitment level is important. Not all AA teams are alike. One of my sons teams allows 1 excused absence per month. That's it. Miss any more than that and there will be consequences. The other has been problematic. I can certainly appreciate all the other team mates buying in on a high commit level. If one is spending AAA cash, then I would hope the commitment, at the very least, is higher.
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Wow! Many Broad Brush Strokes in that post! I am sure you will receive many replies on all that you touched on. Commitment level is important. Not all AA teams are alike. One of my sons teams allows 1 excused absence per month. That's it. Miss any more than that and there will be consequences. The other has been problematic. I can certainly appreciate all the other team mates buying in on a high commit level. If one is spending AAA cash, then I would hope the commitment, at the very least, is higher.
Let me add the "from my own experience" disclaimer.
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Anyone know of a local tournament hosting Bantam AA for Thanksgiving?
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Is there any truth that some current California AA teams are either beating or at least competitive with California AAA teams at the bantam level? If this is the case I am not sure why AAA parents would be surprised by the skill level, toughness, or competitiveness of AA kids.
Most AAA parents literally never watch a AA game after their little McDavid turns 10 and becomes one of the anointed, so it's inconceivable to them that there could be any good AA players. That said, every year there’s talk among AA parents about this or that AA team “really†being a AAA team and the hype is rarely true. The last one I can remember that was a legit AAA team was Bears 03.
Guess rarely is every other year because Bears(1) beat Ducks 06AAA 8-2 two weeks ago and then beat Ducks 05AAA 4-2 this past weekend. Oh, and they're not even the best AA team in the state as the Saints tied Bears(1) at the Jamboree 2-2 and then beat them in the first preseason game 4-1. Both teams are loaded with AAA talent and will make a serious run at Nationals.
Let's see how those CA AA teams fare at AAA tournaments outside California. And before anyone's head explodes, I'm not criticizing the Bears. They do a great job every year of giving AAA caliber kids an alternative path for escaping the AAA industrial complex here in California and pursuing opportunities elsewhere.
Major year AA teams have always been able to beat up on minor year AAA teams. That happens every year and wasn't my point. And I personally don't consider Ducks 06 as proof of anything except the willingness of many parents to pay for the extra A. But if that's your data set then you are self-evidently right that AA > AAA.
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I am not talking about one observation. I am talking about several observations, as in a trend. I don't have an issue with checking at all. It is the consistency with which ckecking is done not to take the puck at all and if a check can be administered with the opposition in a vulnerable position, then all the more it seems to be done. The AA player you mentioned probably plays high school hockey too.
Agree Fowlmood on the issue of consistency with which checking is done and called by officials. In the incident I referred to, the player delivery the check plays for a top AA team and has had well deserved offers to play at prep schools and does not play high school hockey.
My son who has opted out of CAHA does play D-1 high school as a 9th grader and went through the last two AA seasons with just 2 minutes in penalties each season. He used to get a lot more penalties and used to check when it was inappropriate. Somewhat to my dismay, when checking is legal he has become more of a finesse player. It reflects his evolving maturity in other areas of life; hurting someone intentionally is bad. He may become the "hurtee" not the "hurter".
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......or maybe it's that now, they can hit back ? :P
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......or maybe it's that now, they can hit back ? :P
Good line. It gave me an honest laugh. But no, that is not the reason. He has the size and strength to take a hit and deliver one.
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Is there any truth that some current California AA teams are either beating or at least competitive with California AAA teams at the bantam level? If this is the case I am not sure why AAA parents would be surprised by the skill level, toughness, or competitiveness of AA kids.
Most AAA parents literally never watch a AA game after their little McDavid turns 10 and becomes one of the anointed, so it's inconceivable to them that there could be any good AA players. That said, every year there’s talk among AA parents about this or that AA team “really†being a AAA team and the hype is rarely true. The last one I can remember that was a legit AAA team was Bears 03.
Guess rarely is every other year because Bears(1) beat Ducks 06AAA 8-2 two weeks ago and then beat Ducks 05AAA 4-2 this past weekend. Oh, and they're not even the best AA team in the state as the Saints tied Bears(1) at the Jamboree 2-2 and then beat them in the first preseason game 4-1. Both teams are loaded with AAA talent and will make a serious run at Nationals.
Let's see how those CA AA teams fare at AAA tournaments outside California. And before anyone's head explodes, I'm not criticizing the Bears. They do a great job every year of giving AAA caliber kids an alternative path for escaping the AAA industrial complex here in California and pursuing opportunities elsewhere.
Major year AA teams have always been able to beat up on minor year AAA teams. That happens every year and wasn't my point. And I personally don't consider Ducks 06 as proof of anything except the willingness of many parents to pay for the extra A. But if that's your data set then you are self-evidently right that AA > AAA.
Bears beat Ducks 05. You seem to have skipped over that detail. Your point was "every year there's talk among AA parents about this or that AA team "really" being a AAA team and the hype is rarely true. The last one I can remember that was a legit AAA team was Bears 03."
We'll see how they do against the rest of the country, but if they're already beating Bantam Major AAA teams, it ain't hype.
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The Ducks 05 is a little thin to use as an example. Many left the team after last year. Bad example.
Bears took AAA players from the 06 Ducks. Some 06 Ducks are arguably more talented than the 05's.
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The Ducks 05 is a little thin to use as an example. Many left the team after last year. Bad example.
Bears took AAA players from the 06 Ducks. Some 06 Ducks are arguably more talented than the 05's.
Well put. If the claim is that there are AA teams in California that can win games against some team at some age level that calls itself a AAA team then that is irrefutably true, and it is true every year. And if it makes people feel good to remind themselves of that fact, then far be it from me to rain on their parade.
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You flippantly said AA teams are rarely as good as their hype, Bears 03 being the exception. I pointed out that a AA team already beat a AAA Major team. But you keep redefining your qualifications for a AAA team.
If you haven't watched Bears(1) and the Saints play, you shouldn't be so dismissive. And don't be surprised if they beat the Kings 05 and Sharks 05 as well.
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Agree Jack Bender. I have seen them play in the Spring along with Kings 1. Kings would be right there, too, except they lost their coach who had the ability to push his players to play at a peak level. My money would be on the Saints who have maybe a little more talented roster but if Bears and Saints go to Nationals, luck of the draw will be critical as the '04 Bears learned. Both coaches have an ability to teach creativity in play and that alone separates them from nearly all others. It is not just about winning but winning with style and creativity, which means with player development.
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You flippantly said AA teams are rarely as good as their hype, Bears 03 being the exception. I pointed out that a AA team already beat a AAA Major team. But you keep redefining your qualifications for a AAA team.
If you haven't watched Bears(1) and the Saints play, you shouldn't be so dismissive. And don't be surprised if they beat the Kings 05 and Sharks 05 as well.
Bender, unlike you I couldn’t care less about the particular teams as I have no dog in the fight, but I envy your enthusiasm. I wish the Bears and Saints the best of luck and I hope they all live the dream. I also truly hope there are loads of future NHL stars among them no matter how much I doubt it. I was merely making a comment about the annual “AA is better than AAA†debate, which is the same every year and always without substance, and the lack of perspective that I have seen (and continue to see every year) from parents on both sides of the divide.
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Strawman, I have to give you credit. You certainly live up to your chosen Handle on the forum.
I don't remember ever seeing a single post where anyone made the claim that AA is better than AAA. Where are all the people making that claim?
What many people have said, is that there are numerous players in AA who could play AAA if they so chose. The same could be said for A players playing AA.
This isn't conjecture, it's fact. Just looking at the teams my kid played on in the last 2 seasons, he has 4 former teammates who are now playing AAA. They are all talented players, but none of them were generally considered to be the best player on the team nor were any of the 4 statistically the top scorers.
In my opinion, the CAHA system has artificially limited AAA opportunity, so there are likely more players who would be playing AAA in other markets, that are playing AA in California. One of the reasons I've been hearing recently for the level of churn in the Ducks is the move to Irvine that has made it untenable for some families who can't justify the commute. This reinforces the simple fact that in a state as large as California, with only 3 teams, there are going to be many families who just can't get to one of the 3 AAA rinks.
This isn't a knock against the quality or capabilities of kids playing AAA.
As for Bantam AA this year, the writing was on the wall in the spring when the Saints got to the finals of the AAA division and as I recall were beaten by a Patriots team comprised of AAA Ducks and Kings only after a coming behind late in the 3rd. The Bears is pretty much a new team this season, but the Saints played AAA tournaments last year after CAHA ended and beat a number of mid level AAA teams in the process. It also says something about the level of AA, that this same Saints team, was put in Flight2 last year, and were tied or beaten by other Flight2 teams, which says a lot about the Flighting process in terms of teams that have been denied a chance to play in Flight1 in the 2 years of flighting.
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Geez. Strawman aka Mr. Sunshine, thanks for projecting, but no one said AA was better than AAA or anything about the NHL... I simply replied to your sarcastic, dismissive attitude toward two AA teams with actual facts, which you continue to ignore per your hypothesis.
But no dog. No fight. I just think Bears(1) and Saints are without a doubt AAA caliber, and I base that on perspective and insight.
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IcaDad, a few of questions. First, exactly how deep do you think AA is in AAA quality players and AAA quality teams? Second, what in your view is an AAA quality player and team? Third, what is the harm and who is being harmed by what you see as the artificially imposed scarcity of AAA
For all of the animus towards CAHA and frustrations with flighting, the system seems to be producing teams capable of producing teams capable of competing as elite teams on the national level, producing players capable of and making nationally recognized teams, and shown some willingness to expand AAA past the Big 3.
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The difference is depth in the team for AA vs AAA. ( and this is huge)
AAA has 3 or 4 good lines and 2 good goalies.
AA maybe 1 good line and 1 good goalie ( you get the idea)
AA could not play in the AAA Tier 1 league, You are playing 4 games in two days, travel, not sleep at home, which is hard enough.
Your strong players will have to play more and will be identified and get hurt.
Yes AA teams have a few that could play AAA on the ice, But are they ready to travel without parents and focused enough to do homework and not screw around and get into trouble. Keep the dress shoes and socks together.
If your son wants to continue to play in college and maybe Europe,Asia, etc Then AAA is helpful. Your sone needs to get seen and play with more developed players. If its for fun with friends then stay and they still can play in the ACHA Colleges ( no grants, no scholarships)
If they want to keep moving on , this is the age where they need to go camps. ( not all of them)
Most people on this feed will not do WHL. They do have camps in the spring , which are good to go to, just to get a feeling of whats expected. There are a few camps in Vegas, ( Not $$$)
If you are playing in AA and want to keep going you will need to make the jump to AAA. U15 is where they get drafted and invites to camps. U-16 is also important, By U18 its too late.
Start looking now, talk to parents who did it last year. They know the cost and if it was worth it. USHL has a camp in Chicago ( if you get invited - GO )
NAHL has 1 in Anaheim ( Go)
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Good post Icadad:
"In my opinion, the CAHA system has artificially limited AAA opportunity, so there are likely more players who would be playing AAA in other markets, that are playing AA in California. One of the reasons I've been hearing recently for the level of churn in the Ducks is the move to Irvine that has made it untenable for some families who can't justify the commute. This reinforces the simple fact that in a state as large as California, with only 3 teams, there are going to be many families who just can't get to one of the 3 AAA rinks."
This is a sound point. My guess is that So. California could handle two to three extra AAA teams at least through Bantam. Moreover, both the Kings and Ducks '05 AAA teams have taken in good AA players to fill out rosters after losing players to prep schools.
Your point about the size of California and the number of AAA teams is well taken. We know two families from S. OC who have commuted to Kings AAA for some years now. Don't know how they can endure it but in both cases, it has paid off in the development of two excellent young players. Got to believe that the cost to academics in high school will be significant although California Connections Academy offers a decent online academic alternative.
"As for Bantam AA this year, the writing was on the wall in the spring when the Saints got to the finals of the AAA division and as I recall were beaten by a Patriots team comprised of AAA Ducks and Kings only after a coming behind late in the 3rd. The Bears is pretty much a new team this season, but the Saints played AAA tournaments last year after CAHA ended and beat a number of mid level AAA teams in the process. It also says something about the level of AA, that this same Saints team, was put in Flight2 last year, and were tied or beaten by other Flight2 teams, which says a lot about the Flighting process in terms of teams that have been denied a chance to play in Flight1 in the 2 years of flighting."
The Saints problem this spring was a combination of arrogance and not taking the Patriots (or the team from Vancouver Island) seriously. This happens with professional teams so not surprising it happens with less mature 13-14 year olds. Their substitution patterns suggested that the coach wanted to win but if the players didn't care so much, any team is vulnerable. The one thing that has distinguished the Kings AA1 (Patriots) coach over several years is that his teams played with great intensity when it mattered. Happened to be outside his locker room after the Patriots lost to the Saints in the prelims this spring and there is no doubt about his intensity. I don't believe that a coach can will be team to "losing is not an option" but Maik might be one of the hockey coaches who could. I write that with a certain degree of admiration.
Not sure why the Saints '05 was dropped to Flight 2 last year. I saw some of their games and the games of all Flight 1 teams and would argue the Saints were better than at least 4 to 6 teams. Maybe they sandbagged the evaluation period or just showed some of the same uneven competitive commitment of this last spring.
The Bears are a new team but as one of their parents told me, Peter recruits kids who are hockey smart and able to pick up his system or style of play quickly. The kids on the team that I know are, indeed, hockey smart.
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"My guess is that So. California could handle two to three extra AAA teams at least through Bantam."
I completely disagree. I thought we had also covered this when you provided the USA Hockey registration #s. California simply does not have enough kids playing to justify what you stated above. We are in fact right inline with the rest of the country.
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Note: AAA is not always better than AA. Watch a AAA game. And then watch AA right afterwards. AAA is sometimes slower paced than a AA game. AAA doesn’t necessarily have the best talent in so cal on it. It just has kids that can put in the time and want to put in the time. And most importantly their parents can afford it. Money doesn’t mean skills come with that always.
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"My guess is that So. California could handle two to three extra AAA teams at least through Bantam."
I completely disagree. I thought we had also covered this when you provided the USA Hockey registration #s. California simply does not have enough kids playing to justify what you stated above. We are in fact right inline with the rest of the country.
Problem is the number do justify having more AAA teams in California
https://cdn1.sportngin.com/attachments/document/2210-1687681/2018-19_Final_Registration_Report.pdf (https://cdn1.sportngin.com/attachments/document/2210-1687681/2018-19_Final_Registration_Report.pdf)
USA Hockey Registrations 2018-2019 Season
Michigan 25,448 players under 19
California 15,468 players under 19
Colorado 10,248 players under 19
USA Hockey Registrations 2018-2019 Season 15-16
Michigan 3,048 players 10 16U AAA Teams and 9 15U AAA teams
California 1,765 players 3 16U AAA Teams and 3 15U AAA teams
Colorado 1,374 players 4 16U AAA Teams and 4 15U AAA teams
USA Hockey Registrations 2018-2019 Season 13-14
Michigan 3,880 players 8 14U AAA Teams and 8 13U AAA teams
California 2,144 players 3 14U AAA Teams and 3 13U AAA teams
Colorado 1,505 players 4 14U AAA Teams and 3 13U AAA Teams
There should be at least 2 more AAA teams at each level.
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I guess we will just disagree then. I did the same thing you did but included more "hockey" states like Illinois, Massachusetts, and New York. California is in line with the number of AAA teams they field as a % of the total registered number of players. For states that had more AAA team like the ones you showed in Colorado and Michigan, I looked at how their bottom AAA teams performed via MyHockey Rankings. Not surprisingly the bottom AAA teams would be mid pack at the AA level in their state. I'm not sure what good that does.
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More is NOT always better. Look at 06 AAA Ice Dogs - they will be fighting not to be last. They lost to the 06 AAA ducks and Kings by a combined score of 20-1...adding a Sharks south team is not what people wanted im sure. Now, that team is a bit different as they lost their best players to the Ducks 06 + some of the best 06 ID decided to stick with the IDAA team...I am more interested in what SSM-LA is going to bring. They promise AAA teams with the Mariners as a feeder club (on paper only)..they will be drawing some good kids not only from Cali but also out of state.
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I guess we will just disagree then. I did the same thing you did but included more "hockey" states like Illinois, Massachusetts, and New York. California is in line with the number of AAA teams they field as a % of the total registered number of players. For states that had more AAA team like the ones you showed in Colorado and Michigan, I looked at how their bottom AAA teams performed via MyHockey Rankings. Not surprisingly the bottom AAA teams would be mid pack at the AA level in their state. I'm not sure what good that does.
Michigan home state of an original 6 and Colorado home of USA Hockey. I am not sure how they could be any more of a hockey state. I also picked those states because the number of registrations are similar. BTW, 6 of those Michigan teams are in the top 20 at 16U last year which is the only division that matters. Not sure what you are looking at...
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So in life there is always a winner and a loser. Why are we letting a governing body choose whether or not our kids even have a chance to be a winner? Shouldn’t that be the customers choice? Each club should be able to register a AAA team. More kids would get the opportunity. If the team is great good for them, they are the winners. If they lose well that’s on the club too. Their reputation will go down. So in myhockeyrankings there will always will be teams in the losers brackets, that’s life! Stop letting a governing body tell you what’s best for your child. All they care about is your money. As the customer we should have options.
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(https://media.giphy.com/media/RL0xU1daTlMoE/giphy.gif)
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Looks like JackBender and the Flighting Evaluation Committee.
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If I am not mistaken, the Gulls and GSE were both approved to have AAA 05 over the past few years. Neither felt they ended up with enough talent to field a team.
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If I am not mistaken, the Gulls and GSE were both approved to have AAA 05 over the past few years. Neither felt they ended up with enough talent to field a team.
I cannot speak to the GSE decision but my son participated in the Gulls '05 AAA clinics. The first few were by invitation only and had about 10-11 skaters. At the first open clinic, a club official was there and speaking loudly proclaimed, in essence, that this was not AAA level team. The additional skaters clearly diluted the level of play. The decision was made then and there to cancel the AAA team without even getting to formal tryouts or letting the new players and others who might be recruited adjust to a grueling workout by a former Red Army player. It was at least a month before the official tryouts. I was later told that the club official was also the '05 AA coach and wanted those players for his team. Have no idea if this is accurate. However, the best '05 Gulls moved to the Saints so the organizational power play rightly failed.
As a somewhat important side note, my son absolutely loved the would-be Gulls '05 AAA coach. For him it was a lost opportunity that he periodically still talks about four years later. Maybe in 20 years that will be what he remembers most about California ice hockey.
Thank for reminding me that there are multiple reasons for the dysfunctions in California hockey; CAHA is just one of the problems. If feasible, we should have returned to Minnesota where he was born once he fell in love with the game and showed a little promise. The process of being a promising ice hockey player in California is convoluted and so money driven that his affection for the game is now tempered, which may be a good thing. After all, it is just about pushing a little saucer around on the ice with a stick.
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i imagine it will be difficult to build a consistent aaa program as long as every year a club must beg "permission" from caha to continue the program, and such permission may be withheld at a whim by a committee comprised of employees of competing clubs. the process is ludicrous. anointing jd and jk as the only clubs worthy of aaa was ludicrous. the arrogance has driven the majority of the best talent out of the state.
this discussion completely lacks any historical perspective regarding aaa in socal over the past 10-15 years. jd didn't even have aaa until 2012, when it bought ochc; jk was the second banana to lahc, which it took over in that same year. just before those mergers, there were five other clubs in socal that offered aaa, most of which had a history of moving kids to juniors and college, and success at nationals that neither the jd or jk have yet to match. how is it that these two clubs are now the only ones left? because they (and sharks) controlled the caha board, changed the rules to their own competitive advantage, while pushing a fable that there is room for only two aaa teams to justify kneecapping the other clubs. before the mergers, there were more aaa teams, having more success, from a pool of 40% fewer kids. fact.
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If you are playing in AA and want to keep going you will need to make the jump to AAA. U15 is where they get drafted and invites to camps. U-16 is also important, By U18 its too late.
Good post but I question that U18 is too late. There was a local player drafted in a early round of the NAHL draft last year that played U18 AAA. I think a lot of to comes down to what the player wants to get out of it.
I've seen parents and players slow play it for a variety of reasons.
There are different paths, I believe Jonathan Blum played one year of AAA and then left Southern California.
Sometimes a player is nationally noticed at 14-15 and is written off by age 16.
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So...any actual Bantam AA stuff going on? Anyone other than Dogs at a tournament this weekend?
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If you are playing in AA and want to keep going you will need to make the jump to AAA. U15 is where they get drafted and invites to camps. U-16 is also important, By U18 its too late.
Good post but I question that U18 is too late. There was a local player drafted in a early round of the NAHL draft last year that played U18 AAA. I think a lot of to comes down to what the player wants to get out of it.
I've seen parents and players slow play it for a variety of reasons.
There are different paths, I believe Jonathan Blum played one year of AAA and then left Southern California.
Sometimes a player is nationally noticed at 14-15 and is written off by age 16.
Kids who are born in the first 4 months of the year make up the majority of 12U-15U AAA teams. It starts to level out at 16 where the kids with late birth months are not as handicapped by being younger. Hammacher has a good perspective on this as he was one of the yearly birth month kids and one of the anointed ones but, his kids were/are latter birth month kids. 18U AAA has its place for these talented kids that are "late bloomers"
Very few kids are 16 on a USHL or NAHL team. Nobody really scouts 15U, 16U is the most predominate path to the next level, then 18U. You can argue that 15U prepare them for 16U but, 15U is mostly a money grab. A lot of maturation (testosterone) happens between 15 and 16.
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If you are playing in AA and want to keep going you will need to make the jump to AAA. U15 is where they get drafted and invites to camps. U-16 is also important, By U18 its too late.
Good post but I question that U18 is too late. There was a local player drafted in a early round of the NAHL draft last year that played U18 AAA. I think a lot of to comes down to what the player wants to get out of it.
I've seen parents and players slow play it for a variety of reasons.
There are different paths, I believe Jonathan Blum played one year of AAA and then left Southern California.
Sometimes a player is nationally noticed at 14-15 and is written off by age 16.
Kids who are born in the first 4 months of the year make up the majority of 12U-15U AAA teams. It starts to level out at 16 where the kids with late birth months are not as handicapped by being younger. Hammacher has a good perspective on this as he was one of the yearly birth month kids and one of the anointed ones but, his kids were/are latter birth month kids. 18U AAA has its place for these talented kids that are "late bloomers"
Very few kids are 16 on a USHL or NAHL team. Nobody really scouts 15U, 16U is the most predominate path to the next level, then 18U. You can argue that 15U prepare them for 16U but, 15U is mostly a money grab. A lot of maturation (testosterone) happens between 15 and 16.
Agree except with the point about lack of scouting at 15U. True in California but top 15U AAA teams are well-scouted in the NE.
(I also don't know where the idea comes from that it's "too late" at 18U. Significant numbers of players continue to be drafted at that level, though again not in California.)
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Let's get back to the Bantam AA Team talk boys and girls. 8)
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CCM Denver - 2005 AA/AAA
Ice Dogs 0 and 2????
Ice Dogs, CA 2 - 4 Arvada, CO
Hyland Hills Jaguars, CO 4 - 1 Ice Dogs, CA
GSE 0 and 1????
Golden State Elite, CA 1 - 4 DU Jr. Pioneers, CO
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IcaDad, a few of questions. First, exactly how deep do you think AA is in AAA quality players and AAA quality teams? Second, what in your view is an AAA quality player and team? Third, what is the harm and who is being harmed by what you see as the artificially imposed scarcity of AAA
For all of the animus towards CAHA and frustrations with flighting, the system seems to be producing teams capable of producing teams capable of competing as elite teams on the national level, producing players capable of and making nationally recognized teams, and shown some willingness to expand AAA past the Big 3.
The AA system is not designed for stability. AAA is, because it's a birth year system. Coaches essentially make a decision each year as to the kids they want to take, and not surprisingly, if you can have a team that is primarily major year players, you tend to have better results. So what you tend to get at the regional clubs is a team that has a mix of major/minor year players. With all the focus on flighting, a coach is incentivized to take a major year player over a minor year player to boost the overall competitiveness of the team.
I've said a bunch of times, that if they just made AA a scaled down version of AAA, you would have a lot more migration up and down, and it would be easier to have apples to apples comparisons. Depending on the year, you probably have anywhere from 2-3 or as many as 5-8 players on a AA team that could in the right circumstances be playing AAA.
It's clear to everyone other than a few delusional individuals that AAA is a commitment to travel and expense that many families can't afford or are unwilling to entertain, so that fact, compounded by the limitations to AAA opportunities means that California AA has a higher number of kids who could play AAA than most other locales.
As for damages, if the system was healthy you wouldn't see an exodus of kids out of state in order to pursue their development goals and seek exposure to the higher levels of hockey competition.
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If I am not mistaken, the Gulls and GSE were both approved to have AAA 05 over the past few years. Neither felt they ended up with enough talent to field a team.
I cannot speak to the GSE decision but my son participated in the Gulls '05 AAA clinics.
The GSE 04 AAA attempt had multiple 05's on the proposed roster. That was the only way they could collect enough players that were arguably at the AAA level. It would have been a very poor team, they were given approval, and they themselves pulled out of it.
There are on average 10 AA teams for every AAA team in the USA. Just look at myhockeyrankings and count. Norcal does not have enough AAA talent to support an additional AAA team. Two AAA teams for Socal seems to at least follow that ratio. I wish it were not the case, as more competition would be great for all the clubs. But it's just math.
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If I am not mistaken, the Gulls and GSE were both approved to have AAA 05 over the past few years. Neither felt they ended up with enough talent to field a team.
I cannot speak to the GSE decision but my son participated in the Gulls '05 AAA clinics.
The GSE 04 AAA attempt had multiple 05's on the proposed roster. That was the only way they could collect enough players that were arguably at the AAA level. It would have been a very poor team, they were given approval, and they themselves pulled out of it.
I don't know about a GSE North team being a "very poor team" that year...they are strong year in and year out...they finished a strong 4th in AA Flight 1 despite losing a kid or two to AAA and NOT combining the stronger AAA 05 kids who would have improved the team. That said, it would have likely finished in 4th place in AAA in CAHA...but been in some games. If you think there should be MORE AAA teams in CAHA that team would have surely fit in with your philosophy of more opportunity...
As far as why the team was not formed....lack of interest was more the reason. Most parents on that team were not interested in the greater travel and commitment of AAA. That killed any momentum of forming a team...
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CAHA has outdone themselves....they have taken their level of ignorance, stupidity, and incompetence to new record highs while putting kids at risk of injury at the same time!!
CAHA IS SCHEDULING Bantam AA games on KHS RINK B!!!
Can't make it up!!
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CAHA has outdone themselves....they have taken their level of ignorance, stupidity, and incompetence to new record highs while putting kids at risk of injury at the same time!!
CAHA IS SCHEDULING Bantam AA games on KHS RINK B!!!
Can't make it up!!
they’ve done this for years...
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CAHA has outdone themselves....they have taken their level of ignorance, stupidity, and incompetence to new record highs while putting kids at risk of injury at the same time!!
CAHA IS SCHEDULING Bantam AA games on KHS RINK B!!!
Can't make it up!!
they’ve done this for years...
My kid's major bantam AA year we played 3 caha games on B. Its rediculous. Nothing higher than squirts should play there.
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CAHA has outdone themselves....they have taken their level of ignorance, stupidity, and incompetence to new record highs while putting kids at risk of injury at the same time!!
CAHA IS SCHEDULING Bantam AA games on KHS RINK B!!!
Can't make it up!!
Rink C is the small rink at KHS, Rink B is NHL sized or very close to it. Probably bigger than the old Boston Garden (and colder too)
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CAHA has outdone themselves....they have taken their level of ignorance, stupidity, and incompetence to new record highs while putting kids at risk of injury at the same time!!
CAHA IS SCHEDULING Bantam AA games on KHS RINK B!!!
Can't make it up!!
Rink C is the small rink at KHS, Rink B is NHL sized or very close to it. Probably bigger than the old Boston Garden (and colder too)
No. No it’s not. There are only two sheets at KHS, you are probably thinking of Lakewood. Figure it out.
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OOH! :o THAT'S GOTTA HURT!
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CAHA has outdone themselves....they have taken their level of ignorance, stupidity, and incompetence to new record highs while putting kids at risk of injury at the same time!!
CAHA IS SCHEDULING Bantam AA games on KHS RINK B!!!
Can't make it up!!
Rink C is the small rink at KHS, Rink B is NHL sized or very close to it. Probably bigger than the old Boston Garden (and colder too)
Sucks getting old, doesn' t it B.O. !!!!
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Looks like SCAHA schedule isn't "flighted" THIS year...... ::)
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I believe one of the easiest ways for SCAHA/CAHA to improve things is it to provide as many opportunities as possible for competition. Serious players and parents want games. Why the AAA minor teams weren't invited to play this season and the idea was disregarded by clubs makes no sense. Then to my surprise they opt not to flight SCAHA. There are 20 teams and we come away playing just 8-9 games. Huh?
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I believe one of the easiest ways for SCAHA/CAHA to improve things is it to provide as many opportunities as possible for competition. Serious players and parents want games. Why the AAA minor teams weren't invited to play this season and the idea was disregarded by clubs makes no sense. Then to my surprise they opt not to flight SCAHA. There are 20 teams and we come away playing just 8-9 games. Huh?
How many games are you wanting your young super serious athlete to play in a year? between 4-5 tournaments (16-24 games), 8 scaha, 12-18 caha games, playdowns (2-4 games) (assuming because it's a serious player and parent), caha playoffs (2-4 games) you are looking at 40-50 games? do you not want your kid to rest and recover? this is the appropriate an optimal amount of games in the season for this age group.
be happy scaha gave you 8 games to fill in the weeks in between caha weekends, holliday tournaments, select camps, and playoffs.
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FYI, all of the games were included with the AAA minor teams 3 years ago.
The kids lost out on the tournament over Labor Day. If you are including those games, you should not. That event wasn't for the players, it was for administrators.
I've heard SCAHA isn't allowing tournaments over the holidays. Are you telling me that your son isn't skating at all over the break? The CAHA weekend is 1/3.
Perhaps a coach doesn't run the bench evenly in the CAHA games and those SCAHA games offer learning opportunities in less stressful or unimportant game situations.
I believe in the USA Hockey practice to game ratio. I'm also for other sports and down time. That certainly isn't happening the way it is set up in California. WTF, what's your idea to improve this situation? Do you think status quo is ok? Or are you saying bye bye to your little johnny hockey and moving him out of state like so many others are considering?
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I believe one of the easiest ways for SCAHA/CAHA to improve things is it to provide as many opportunities as possible for competition. Serious players and parents want games. Why the AAA minor teams weren't invited to play this season and the idea was disregarded by clubs makes no sense. Then to my surprise they opt not to flight SCAHA. There are 20 teams and we come away playing just 8-9 games. Huh?
Looks like they all play 12 In years past - there was no preseason for AA - so they just scheduled it out with the 12 games and did not break it up. It only existing so games could be had while they sort out Flight I and Flight 2.
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CAHA has outdone themselves....they have taken their level of ignorance, stupidity, and incompetence to new record highs while putting kids at risk of injury at the same time!!
CAHA IS SCHEDULING Bantam AA games on KHS RINK B!!!
Can't make it up!!
Rink C is the small rink at KHS, Rink B is NHL sized or very close to it. Probably bigger than the old Boston Garden (and colder too)
No. No it’s not. There are only two sheets at KHS, you are probably thinking of Lakewood. Figure it out.
Yup you're right I was thinking of Lakewood have fun on rink b suckers. Have fun on the balcony asking the people on ground level how much time is left.
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If I am not mistaken, the Gulls and GSE were both approved to have AAA 05 over the past few years. Neither felt they ended up with enough talent to field a team.
I cannot speak to the GSE decision but my son participated in the Gulls '05 AAA clinics.
The GSE 04 AAA attempt had multiple 05's on the proposed roster. That was the only way they could collect enough players that were arguably at the AAA level. It would have been a very poor team, they were given approval, and they themselves pulled out of it.
I don't know about a GSE North team being a "very poor team" that year...they are strong year in and year out...they finished a strong 4th in AA Flight 1 despite losing a kid or two to AAA and NOT combining the stronger AAA 05 kids who would have improved the team. That said, it would have likely finished in 4th place in AAA in CAHA...but been in some games. If you think there should be MORE AAA teams in CAHA that team would have surely fit in with your philosophy of more opportunity...
As far as why the team was not formed....lack of interest was more the reason. Most parents on that team were not interested in the greater travel and commitment of AAA. That killed any momentum of forming a team...
Fair comment. It's unclear how bad they would have been because it never happened. But beyond the team falling apart, they never had a full 04 roster, and of the 05's, there was only one or two for whom you could have made a solid argument that they could have been on an 04 team under any other circumstance. And given that the AAA clubs typically insist that a player playing 'up' needs to be in the top 5 or so of the team they are playing up on... even that's not at all a slam dunk.
My point is that for all the AA parents arguing there should be more AAA teams, the proof is simply not there that the talent is there that you could field another competitive team in CA. Certainly not in Norcal. And we have more AAA teams for the number of AA teams there are (on average) than most states. I wish it were not so - competition is good for everyone, including teams.
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If I am not mistaken, the Gulls and GSE were both approved to have AAA 05 over the past few years. Neither felt they ended up with enough talent to field a team.
I cannot speak to the GSE decision but my son participated in the Gulls '05 AAA clinics.
The GSE 04 AAA attempt had multiple 05's on the proposed roster. That was the only way they could collect enough players that were arguably at the AAA level. It would have been a very poor team, they were given approval, and they themselves pulled out of it.
I don't know about a GSE North team being a "very poor team" that year...they are strong year in and year out...they finished a strong 4th in AA Flight 1 despite losing a kid or two to AAA and NOT combining the stronger AAA 05 kids who would have improved the team. That said, it would have likely finished in 4th place in AAA in CAHA...but been in some games. If you think there should be MORE AAA teams in CAHA that team would have surely fit in with your philosophy of more opportunity...
As far as why the team was not formed....lack of interest was more the reason. Most parents on that team were not interested in the greater travel and commitment of AAA. That killed any momentum of forming a team...
Fair comment. It's unclear how bad they would have been because it never happened. But beyond the team falling apart, they never had a full 04 roster, and of the 05's, there was only one or two for whom you could have made a solid argument that they could have been on an 04 team under any other circumstance. And given that the AAA clubs typically insist that a player playing 'up' needs to be in the top 5 or so of the team they are playing up on... even that's not at all a slam dunk.
My point is that for all the AA parents arguing there should be more AAA teams, the proof is simply not there that the talent is there that you could field another competitive team in CA. Certainly not in Norcal. And we have more AAA teams for the number of AA teams there are (on average) than most states. I wish it were not so - competition is good for everyone, including teams.
Gotcha. It would have been a stretch of a team, even if all players they wanted opted in--no doubt. As for your main point, I happen to agree with your point entirely.
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San Diego Saints were in Canada over the weekend at the Bauer 2019 AAA Ice Breaker Tournament and went 6-0 and cleaned up in the championships, beating West Vancouver Bantam Varsity, 3-0. 4 of the teams played are listed AA on my hockey rankings, one team is AAA (Edmonton) and one is A1 (not sure where that stands). Well done.
https://www.bantameliteinvite.com/page/show/5182573-san-diego-saints (https://www.bantameliteinvite.com/page/show/5182573-san-diego-saints)
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This isn't a shocker considering their new roster. Kudos to them all the same.
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This isn't a shocker considering their new roster. Kudos to them all the same.
They added a F and D from last years 06AAA Ducks...who else did they add? I was under the impression that their roster was basically the same minus those 2 (very good) adds?
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Also added a AAA Duck 05 D man.
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I also did say Kudos to them. Calm down.
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No, Saints added one forward from the 2005AAA Ducks not a D.
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Ah I see him now - didnt know they picked up #10 from last years AAA05 Ducks.
Bears 1 have scrimmaged both Jr Kings AAA Bantam teams, hope the Saints do the same to see how they matchup.
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“My point is that for all the AA parents arguing there should be more AAA teams, the proof is simply not there that the talent is there that you could field another competitive team in CA. Certainly not in Norcal. And we have more AAA teams for the number of AA teams there are (on average) than most states. I wish it were not so - competition is good for everyone, including teams.â€
You’re missing the point.
1. According to the SCAHA declarations page, the Kings and Ducks have a total of 72 teams out of 280 total. Yes, I know, the Ducks organization has gobbled up OC, but you know what I'm trying to say here. What I'm trying to say is, someone tell me why the small clubs don’t have a dominant position on the CAHA board.
2. The problem with giving the AAA teams to just the big clubs is that the system creates complete corruption. A bad AAA coach can keep his AAA team year after year even if he’s a bad coach. There have been and ARE some poor AAA coaches who would not be attracting any top players AT ALL if any club that wanted could field a AAA team.
3. Go look at the history of Nationals. California teams used to do much better at both the AA and AAA level.
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As the last games are winding up, any thoughts on Bantam AA teams after the first CAHA weekend? Or are we going to keep rehashing the AA/AAA/CAHA debate?
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That rates a separate thread to be started. This one is played out and has already meandered enough for being off topic.
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Ok boys and girl, it’s a little to quit after a big weekend of hockey. So, I’ll start with the obvious #1 Saints, #2,3 &4 could go Bears, Ice Dogs & Kings1 and the rest it’s anyone guess on any given day. 8)
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I have a question. Can someone explain to me how a flight 2 OC team is higher in the rankings than a flight 1 bears 2 team on myhockeyrankings.com? How do the my hockey rankings work? It makes no sense.
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Myhockeyratings.com is based on what the manager turns in. Not all games are always represented. But it also takes into account the quality of your competition, so if you beat a higher rated team in a scrimmage or tournament that is logged, you'll get a higher rating. Bears2 will have a very tough time in flight 1 and will be extremely lucky to win a couple of games. Sorry, but it will be very tough. That OC coach has been flight 1 since flighting began. He will ensure his team improves and plays in good tournaments, scrimmages, etc, which will give them a good ranking. Myhockeyrankings.com is only as accurate as the teams reporting their scores, but it's the best we have for now. Personally, with no dog in either fight, I think OC is the better team and should have been rated higher than Bears 2 in the first place. Are they flight 1? Maybe not, but I'm a strong advocate against flighting in the first place. End of season, OC will be a much improved team than they started as. Bears1 were rated higher than Saints until just recently. Yet, if you ask most any Bears1 parent, they'll admit Saints is a far stronger team as of now and they hope they'll be there in time. Same could be said for Ice Dogs. Saints is strongest out of the gate by far. They took a strong birth year team and improved on it this year. It will be very interesting to see how the top 4 shake out in the end as other teams improve. But back to your question, flighting is grossly inaccurate and extremely political. Myhockeyratings.com relies on the information input without political bias, so it's probably a more accurate rating of teams if the managers actually report everything. It's definitely not accurate, but probably much more accurate than caha designations.
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I have a question. Can someone explain to me how a flight 2 OC team is higher in the rankings than a flight 1 bears 2 team on myhockeyrankings.com? How do the my hockey rankings work? It makes no sense.
Don’t pay too much attention to MHR this early in the season as it is a mathematical calculation that works better as you play more games and the average levels out. That said, Bears2 recently played CAHA weekend against FL1 teams and lost all four, taking some hits on the math putting OCHC with a better math average as they have played less games and held their own in some of the games they competed in. Click on each team and drill down on the “Rating Math†to see how it works mathematically. You will see where the Bears2 took some point hits, especially against Gulls1.
So in summary, it’s early to tell, but if you look at Bears2 showing at CAHA and other scores, you may gather that the Flighting at the bottom of 1 and the top of 2 could be actually be mixed up (and this is where the politics of flighting begin). CAHA flighting is human review and MHR is generally stats driven - you take your pick.....
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Thank you for the clarification. I sometimes lean towards stats being the better picture. It takes all bias out of the equation. Happy hockey season everyone.
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Any results this weekend? Not much seems posted yet.
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Empire tied OC 3 to 3!!! That should fire up this board!
Anybody hear how the saints fared against Kings AAA last week??
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Saints lost 5-0 (i think?)...I know they lost.
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SCAHA shows Saints lost to JD AA 2-0 this weekend. Can anyone confirm? That doesn't seem right.
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I dont think SCAHA is complete yet, as the Empire score is incorrect as well. Hopefully they get it updated.
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Don't rely on the scaha website for anything accurate...
and the saints lost 4-0 to kings AAA 05
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Socalhockeydad, that's why I liked this site. It was a good place to go to see what teams were doing and who was going where, in addition to the entertainment factor. Now it's just dead, and SCAHA not reliable for posting accurate scores for every game. Thanks for Saints JK AAA score.
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Flyers beat the Lady Ducks 16AAA 9-0
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Don't rely on the scaha website for anything accurate...
and the saints lost 4-0 to kings AAA 05
I'm surprised by this. I thought the Saints would have a good chance at beating the Kings. Of course it was at TSC where the purple teams do seem to get the benefit of the doubt from the zebras, but still a bit of a surprise. Not an embarrassing loss by any means, but the Kings are clearly playing some really good hockey right now.
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I watched part of the game - Kings AAA is a really good team, but they have lost a few kids (of course picked up Park) so I thought it would be a toss-up.
From my bender level hockey perspective, the Saints play a AAA style / level game - the speed, movement of the puck, etc. They dont rely on breakaway hockey for their goals. The Kings just had more depth and skill - loss was not a knock on the saints at all.
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Anyone want to make some predictions for this weekend? Here is Flight 1:
11/08/19 3:00p Eagles(1) Wave Vacaville
11/08/19 3:30p Bears(1) Eagles(2) Vacaville
11/08/19 8:30p Bears(2) Jr. Ice Dogs Valencia
11/08/19 9:40p Jr. Kings(1) Saints Valencia
11/09/19 6:00a Jr. Ducks(1) Eagles(1) Vacaville
11/09/19 6:30a Wave Eagles(2) Vacaville
11/09/19 7:45a Jr. Flyers Bears(1) Vacaville
11/09/19 12:15p Bears(2) Saints Valencia
11/09/19 1:40p Jr. Kings(1) Jr. Ice Dogs Valencia
11/09/19 2:45p Jr. Flyers Eagles(1) Vacaville
11/09/19 4:00p Jr. Ducks(1) Eagles(2) Vacaville
11/09/19 4:30p Wave Bears(1) Vacaville
11/09/19 9:00p Bears(2) Jr. Kings(1) Valencia
11/10/19 6:00a Jr. Ducks(1) Wave Vacaville
11/10/19 6:30a Bears(1) Eagles(1) Vacaville
11/10/19 8:15a Eagles(2) Jr. Flyers Vacaville
11/10/19 1:40p Saints Jr. Ice Dogs Lakewood
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Flight 2:
11/08/19 4:45p Jr. Sharks Empire Vacaville
11/08/19 5:15p Blackhawks OC Hockey Vacaville
11/08/19 6:30p Jr. Kings(2) Jr. Ducks(2) Vacaville
11/09/19 7:00a Jr. Gulls(1) Jr. Reign(1) Valencia
11/09/19 7:00a Jr. Gulls(2) Jr. Condors Valencia
11/09/19 8:15a Jr. Ducks(2) Jr. Sharks Vacaville
11/09/19 9:30a Empire Blackhawks Vacaville
11/09/19 10:00a OC Hockey Jr. Kings(2) Vacaville
11/09/19 3:20p Jr. Condors Jr. Gulls(1) Valencia
11/09/19 3:45p Jr. Gulls(2) Jr. Reign(1) Valencia
11/09/19 5:45p Jr. Kings(2) Jr. Sharks Vacaville
11/09/19 6:15p Blackhawks Jr. Ducks(2) Vacaville
11/09/19 7:30p Empire OC Hockey Vacaville
11/10/19 7:00a Jr. Gulls(1) Jr. Gulls(2) Lakewood
11/10/19 7:45a Jr. Kings(2) Blackhawks Vacaville
11/10/19 9:30a Jr. Ducks(2) Empire Vacaville
11/10/19 10:00a Jr. Sharks OC Hockey Vacaville
11/10/19 1:50p Jr. Reign(1) Jr. Condors Valencia
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Everyone must have jet-lag from such a balanced travel schedule. Nothing exciting to report? Was the rink as cold as ever?
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Everyone must have jet-lag from such a balanced travel schedule. Nothing exciting to report? Was the rink as cold as ever?
Thats easy...The #1 team in the nation lost, badly, to a good Kings 1. Yes, calling 4-1 a bad loss might be stretching it, and yes I think they were down a couple players, but the Saints looked horrible in that game IMO and considering the expectations...that was a bad loss.
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The biggest shock of the weekend was Sportsnet firing Don Cherry from Coach's Corner. All for calling on Canadians(who were Born there or immigrated there)to support veterans who fought and or died for Canada by wearing a poppy!
Click the link below to sign a petition in support of Don Cherry....an extreme patriot to his country and to hockey!! #grapes
http://chng.it/ZMG4xDG4K6 (http://chng.it/ZMG4xDG4K6)
Don is a fighter and he will come back stronger than ever!
"You people..." is a derogatory, condescending, and bigoted phrase. How dare you people support such unscrupulousness.
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Huge congrats to the Ice Dogs Bantam AA team that just made the 'final four' at SilverStick among the top AA teams in North America. Way to go Ice Dogs!!!
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Huge congrats to the Ice Dogs Bantam AA team that just made the 'final four' at SilverStick among the top AA teams in North America. Way to go Ice Dogs!!!
Wow. Congrats. And when that team combines with the current Ice Dogs 06 AAA team next year they're going to crush!
Oh... wait... whoops. Way to screw that one up, CAHA. You are seriously the worst. :-\
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Congrats to Ice Dogs on winning Bantam AA Silver Sticks.
Flyers Peewee AA made it to semis
Good California showing
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You kind of answer your question in your own sentence... but they also tied 5 CAHA games. So, uh... yeah.
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Much respect for the wave and bears 2. Both teams proved to be worthy opponents most weeks.
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Amazing to see that Wave coaches and mgrs complained and fought hard to make Flight 1 status as their original Bantam AA Flight 2 placement wasn't good enough and yet still managed to lose every single CAHA game in Flight 1. Hmmm, not sure what happened there, but curious if parents and coaches can still consider that a good investment for their kids and a chalk it up to a good year for development? 🤔
What happened to that Wave team could happen to any team at any time. Not sure the coaches, managers or the parents could have expected to lose 2 kids to AAA and then deal with multiple MAJOR injuries throughout the season. On a good day they were able to have 12 on the bench. I applaud them.
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Amazing to see that Wave coaches and mgrs complained and fought hard to make Flight 1 status as their original Bantam AA Flight 2 placement wasn't good enough and yet still managed to lose every single CAHA game in Flight 1. Hmmm, not sure what happened there, but curious if parents and coaches can still consider that a good investment for their kids and a chalk it up to a good year for development? 🤔
Flight2 sucks, not because the teams suck, but because the format and interconnection between the flights is a joke. I consider it CAHA's attempt to punish teams for being middling. I guess they would prefer it if there were 12 more teams in Bantam A. Given the choice of battling for a handful of wins or ties in Flight1, or winning the majority of your games by 5+ goals in Flight2, along with no playoffs, and having little to nothing to play for -- I'd take bottom of Flight1 every time, but again that's because the dipshits who came up with the Flight2 system thought they were righteously punishing teams and clubs for reaching beyond their capabilities, rather than making it a legitimate league structure.
I've heard there are plans in place to introduce an even crazier idea for next year, with a winners take all pre-season format: all the tier teams play a mini season, and only the top 8 or 10 advance to the actual 'Tier 2' season. All the other teams are essentially abandoned to a meaningless scrimmage season. It's like the people who come up with this stuff literally hate Tier2, and over half of the participants.