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Hockey Discussions => Bantam Hockey => Topic started by: lcadad on June 14, 2019, 10:43:55 AM
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Hello again my fellow Bantam AA victims,
Once again we have been summoned by our CAHA overlords to Norcal. What's that you say? Another Norcal adventure involving travel expenses, hotels, and loss of the traditional Labor day start of season tournaments that people enjoyed in prior decades?
And all this so that teams can "scrimmage" each other in < 50 minute running time format, and occasionally be evaluated in a secretive system involving coaches of various clubs which may or may not be highly biased, using unpublished pre jamboree rankings, along with subjective and undocumented criteria. If that doesn't get you excited, then you should probably also know that the evaluators may be watching 10 minutes of one or 2 of your games or not at all, assuming there aren't any major changes from prior years.
While I could certainly bash the actual format and execution of the Jamboree on its merits, before I digress, I have a far simpler criticism.
Why is the Jamboree once again in NorCal? As this is the 3rd year of the Flight system, why is it that we are being expected to once again report to NorCal when the SoCal teams outnumber the NorCal teams by a 4-1 or even 5-1 ratio?
Apparently nobody from CAHA stopped to think about the basic fairness involved in forcing 16 teams to bear the travel and housing costs for this charade, when the representation of teams is so incredibly unequal. Based on representation, one would expect to have to travel to Norcal once every 4 seasons of this system, but instead, we're forced back to Norcal again for the 2nd time in 3 seasons.
Let's get real. There is very little reason for the Jamboree that requires travel. Teams could play each other in pre-season games or scrimmages as was done in the old days and we'd get much the same level of evaluation and results. So when people decry the ongoing series of CAHA mandates as favorable to Norcal organizations, teams and rinks, it's harder and harder for even the most vociferous devil's advocate argument to be made to the contrary unless you have the deluded view that SoCal hockey needs NorCal.
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Is your son serious about hockey? Do you think he has a bit of potential? Why shouldn't he be able to play the best kids in his age group if he is on a lousy team?
Any justification for flighting is wasted by the thousands we all spend traveling to that stupid event. I'd rather have a few games that are blowouts during the season.
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Some simple math for CAHA to consider when making their decision to have every SOCAL AA Team travel to SJ for the "Jamboree".
45(ESTIMATED number of SoCal AA Teams traveling to SJ....PW, Bantam, Midget)
810(ESTIMATED number of SoCal AA players traveling to SJ....PW, Bantam, Midget....based on 18 player roster)
$1500(ESTIMATED cost for one parent and kid to travel to SJ for "Jamboree" weekend...flight, rental car, gas, hotels, food...)
$1,215,000(ESTIMATED AMOUNT OF MONEY SOCAL FAMILIES WILL SPEND TO PARTICIPATE IN THE "JAMBOREE" in San Jose!!)
These are just travel costs....there are club costs, missed work, missed school, etc. to consider as well.
Hopefully CAHA will see the financial stress this puts on most families and come up with a solution that is far more efficient and beneficial to the hockey families.
CAHA has a meeting coming up soon and I think any board member with an ounce of common sense will agree that there has to be a better way....
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While I have my calculator out....how about this.
18 teams x 18 players x 3 divisons=972 AA players in total
Charge $30/player for a CAHA Evaluation fee....$29,160
Mandate that teams play in Labor Day Tournaments in CA
Spend the $29,160 to send CAHA evaluators to watch games at the tournaments...3 for each division or 9 total!
$3240 per evaluator for expenses and compensation.....Pretty sure some competent evaluators may sign up...maybe even evaluators without connections to clubs!
This would save every SoCal AA family an estimated $1470 in 2019!!!!
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I agree with Hockey05. I'd much rather play a couple blowout games on win or lose side than waste all the money to go up to NorCal for another bs waste of money. Last season, it was apparent they already had most of their picks for the flights before the Jamboree. Why do we have to go to NorCal for the 3rd year in a row when most teams are from SoCal? Why do we have the useless flighting anyway? It's almost like the geniuses at CAHA feel they need to punish the lowly AA players. I'd rather kick off the season by playing in a Labor Day tournament like we used to, rather than playing another stupid Jamboree with nothing but secrecy, no posted scores, no true evaluation. Enough with the flighting and summoning us up to NorCal for the big money grab.
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I agree with Hockey05. I'd much rather play a couple blowout games on win or lose side than waste all the money to go up to NorCal for another bs waste of money. Last season, it was apparent they already had most of their picks for the flights before the Jamboree. Why do we have to go to NorCal for the 3rd year in a row when most teams are from SoCal? Why do we have the useless flighting anyway? It's almost like the geniuses at CAHA feel they need to punish the lowly AA players. I'd rather kick off the season by playing in a Labor Day tournament like we used to, rather than playing another stupid Jamboree with nothing but secrecy, no posted scores, no true evaluation. Enough with the flighting and summoning us up to NorCal for the big money grab.
CAHA's prime directive is to put $$$$ in the pockets of the owners of the San Jose and Vacaville rinks.
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I agree with Hockey05. I'd much rather play a couple blowout games on win or lose side than waste all the money to go up to NorCal for another bs waste of money. Last season, it was apparent they already had most of their picks for the flights before the Jamboree. Why do we have to go to NorCal for the 3rd year in a row when most teams are from SoCal? Why do we have the useless flighting anyway? It's almost like the geniuses at CAHA feel they need to punish the lowly AA players. I'd rather kick off the season by playing in a Labor Day tournament like we used to, rather than playing another stupid Jamboree with nothing but secrecy, no posted scores, no true evaluation. Enough with the flighting and summoning us up to NorCal for the big money grab.
CAHA's prime directive is to put $$$$ in the pockets of the owners of the San Jose and Vacaville rinks.
Even with flighting there are blow out games, look it up...
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One can only hope some voice of reason at CAHA will consider the damage being done to the hockey families in this state. This exercise is a burden of time, money and a lack of hockey development.
We've covered it so many different ways. The bottom 5 teams know they are in the lower half. And at the top, you've got a team that is state champion for multiple years. Why should the Bears have to travel to San Jose? Just about any knowledgable hockey parent can tell you the top teams in the division. The whole thing is unnecessary.
Will CAHA do the right thing and represent our best interests? I guess we will find out.
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I believe this is CAHA, right. CALIFORNIA goes all the way to the Oregon border to the North. Put your selfish side in check for just a minute and look at this from the eyes of the individual families. It really doesn't matter how many teams have to travel, what matters is how much is spent by each family. There are still more events in SoCal than in NorCal, ergo NorCal families still spend more on travel for CAHA weekends, jamboree, playoffs, and finals. The families and children don't own the rinks, they pay their own way. Maybe find something nice to do while you are up here like drink some wine and relax! Maybe enjoy a glass of water while you are here, it tastes better before it is infused with pesticides and piped to LA. Just sayin'.
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Proving once again that you don’t have to be a dickhead to live in Vacaville, but it sure helps you fit in.
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8)
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Well played not from So Cal. But I will find you on one of my six trips north (three of which my son only plays other So. Cal teams) and launch into a respectful and tempered reproach of your analysis of the situation. I am a southern California male after all. :)
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Looks like Valencia's envelope was the thickest for Bantam this year.
http://www.caha.com/tierIIweekends.pl (http://www.caha.com/tierIIweekends.pl)
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To resolve this whole issue of travel for CAHA weekends, why doesn’t AA just follow the same as A hockey. Play all the SoCal teams during the season and then the top 2 travel and meet the northern top 2 teams for the state title? That system works well every year for A. Why does an extra A have to add so much unnecessary travel when we have plenty of teams to play in SoCal?
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To resolve this whole issue of travel for CAHA weekends, why doesn’t AA just follow the same as A hockey. Play all the SoCal teams during the season and then the top 2 travel and meet the northern top 2 teams for the state title? That system works well every year for A. Why does an extra A have to add so much unnecessary travel when we have plenty of teams to play in SoCal?
Because there are not enough AA teams up North. Usually only 3 or 4 in Norcal and 14 or so down south.
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To resolve this whole issue of travel for CAHA weekends, why doesn’t AA just follow the same as A hockey. Play all the SoCal teams during the season and then the top 2 travel and meet the northern top 2 teams for the state title? That system works well every year for A. Why does an extra A have to add so much unnecessary travel when we have plenty of teams to play in SoCal?
Because there are not enough AA teams up North. Usually only 3 or 4 in Norcal and 14 or so down south.
I don’t want to seem like I have no sportsmanship, but I don’t think that is SoCal problem. I think NorCal should be thinking of ways to grow hockey up north. Maybe with less travel down south they might get more takers.
And maybe just maybe if CAHA didn’t feel the need to regulate the levels of play and restrict clubs from having AAA teams, you might just be able to grow the sport!
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To resolve this whole issue of travel for CAHA weekends, why doesn’t AA just follow the same as A hockey. Play all the SoCal teams during the season and then the top 2 travel and meet the northern top 2 teams for the state title? That system works well every year for A. Why does an extra A have to add so much unnecessary travel when we have plenty of teams to play in SoCal?
CAHA tried that 3 seasons ago. SCAHA games counted travel for CAHA weekends for north south games. That was before my kid played but I think it only lasted 1 season. People complained about too few games. Or that's what I remember hearing.
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You guys do realize that you signed up for "travel" Hockey right? If you really hate the traveling then I suggest you play "A".
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You should not have to travel with all that expense to play at a higher level. That is why there would be so much more better competition if it was affordable to more people. You do know that all athletes are not rich, right?
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That's the nature of California hockey and its not likely to change. It will never grow with all the complainers whining about traveling and all the top talent moving to Minnesota. 2 trips per season up north is pretty much the norm... Looks like each division will make one more trip this year other than labor day. Its not that bad...
I still say you knew what you were signing up for so smile and break out that credit card.
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You guys do realize that you signed up for "travel" Hockey right? If you really hate the traveling then I suggest you play "A".
Even non-tier teams travel. Depending on the teams in your division, and where your club's home rink is, you may find yourself going from Bakersfield to San Diego. What's needless is the travel from Socal for a CAHA weekend where you play 4 other Socal teams you could have played locally.
As the Norcal tier teams have dwindled this problem has become more pronounced. Adding Flighting only made it worse. From the most recent pronouncement on the SCAHA site, it seems that they are moving back towards the experiment from 3 seasons ago:
In an effort to address concerns of our membership the following format has been approved by the full CAHA Board of Directors for the 19/20 season:
CAHA will attempt to schedule primarily North vs South games and North vs North at the North venues and South vs South games at the South venues. Each venue will most likely host multiple divisions each weekend.
What does this mean for your team?
South teams: Ideally, 4 teams per division will travel North and play only North teams in 1 of the 5 weekends. The other 4 weekends you will be in the South venues playing your South opponents.
North teams: Ideally, you will spend 4 of the 5 weekends in North venues playing both North and South teams and travel South once to complete the round, if needed.
However, based on the number of teams in each flightision the above scenarios may not be adequate to complete the required games, but it is the intention of CAHA to schedule games as reasonably as possible based on the teams geographical make-up.
What if there are more or less than 4 North teams in a flightision? If there are less than 3 or 4 North teams in a flightision South teams should anticipate playing a South opponent in order to get the required games in.
If there are more than 4 teams in a flightision a South team may be required to travel North more than once and/or a North team may have to travel South more than once.
We appreciate your patience as we roll out this new format and hope the outcome is a positive one for all our members. Feel free to email me or your League President directly with questions.
Sincerely,
Laura Cahn
CAHA Youth Council Chair
lauracahn@yahoo.com
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You guys do realize that you signed up for "travel" Hockey right? If you really hate the traveling then I suggest you play "A".
Even non-tier teams travel. Depending on the teams in your division, and where your club's home rink is, you may find yourself going from Bakersfield to San Diego. What's needless is the travel from Socal for a CAHA weekend where you play 4 other Socal teams you could have played locally.
As the Norcal tier teams have dwindled this problem has become more pronounced. Adding Flighting only made it worse. From the most recent pronouncement on the SCAHA site, it seems that they are moving back towards the experiment from 3 seasons ago:
In an effort to address concerns of our membership the following format has been approved by the full CAHA Board of Directors for the 19/20 season:
CAHA will attempt to schedule primarily North vs South games and North vs North at the North venues and South vs South games at the South venues. Each venue will most likely host multiple divisions each weekend.
What does this mean for your team?
South teams: Ideally, 4 teams per division will travel North and play only North teams in 1 of the 5 weekends. The other 4 weekends you will be in the South venues playing your South opponents.
North teams: Ideally, you will spend 4 of the 5 weekends in North venues playing both North and South teams and travel South once to complete the round, if needed.
However, based on the number of teams in each flightision the above scenarios may not be adequate to complete the required games, but it is the intention of CAHA to schedule games as reasonably as possible based on the teams geographical make-up.
What if there are more or less than 4 North teams in a flightision? If there are less than 3 or 4 North teams in a flightision South teams should anticipate playing a South opponent in order to get the required games in.
If there are more than 4 teams in a flightision a South team may be required to travel North more than once and/or a North team may have to travel South more than once.
We appreciate your patience as we roll out this new format and hope the outcome is a positive one for all our members. Feel free to email me or your League President directly with questions.
Sincerely,
Laura Cahn
CAHA Youth Council Chair
lauracahn@yahoo.com
At face value it actually seems reasonable. Let's see if they can pull it off!
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You guys do realize that you signed up for "travel" Hockey right? If you really hate the traveling then I suggest you play "A".
This would be great if they get it worked out. 2 seasons ago they had the SCAHA games count in the CAHA standings. The way they are wording it now is there will be South CAHA Weekends between South teams only (occasional North team). I'm sure there will still be complainers, but this is what everyone has been asking for for years. Hopefully they finally get it right! Maybe next season they change the Labor Day format!!!
Even non-tier teams travel. Depending on the teams in your division, and where your club's home rink is, you may find yourself going from Bakersfield to San Diego. What's needless is the travel from Socal for a CAHA weekend where you play 4 other Socal teams you could have played locally.
As the Norcal tier teams have dwindled this problem has become more pronounced. Adding Flighting only made it worse. From the most recent pronouncement on the SCAHA site, it seems that they are moving back towards the experiment from 3 seasons ago:
In an effort to address concerns of our membership the following format has been approved by the full CAHA Board of Directors for the 19/20 season:
CAHA will attempt to schedule primarily North vs South games and North vs North at the North venues and South vs South games at the South venues. Each venue will most likely host multiple divisions each weekend.
What does this mean for your team?
South teams: Ideally, 4 teams per division will travel North and play only North teams in 1 of the 5 weekends. The other 4 weekends you will be in the South venues playing your South opponents.
North teams: Ideally, you will spend 4 of the 5 weekends in North venues playing both North and South teams and travel South once to complete the round, if needed.
However, based on the number of teams in each flightision the above scenarios may not be adequate to complete the required games, but it is the intention of CAHA to schedule games as reasonably as possible based on the teams geographical make-up.
What if there are more or less than 4 North teams in a flightision? If there are less than 3 or 4 North teams in a flightision South teams should anticipate playing a South opponent in order to get the required games in.
If there are more than 4 teams in a flightision a South team may be required to travel North more than once and/or a North team may have to travel South more than once.
We appreciate your patience as we roll out this new format and hope the outcome is a positive one for all our members. Feel free to email me or your League President directly with questions.
Sincerely,
Laura Cahn
CAHA Youth Council Chair
lauracahn@yahoo.com
At face value it actually seems reasonable. Let's see if they can pull it off!
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To resolve this whole issue of travel for CAHA weekends, why doesn’t AA just follow the same as A hockey. Play all the SoCal teams during the season and then the top 2 travel and meet the northern top 2 teams for the state title? That system works well every year for A. Why does an extra A have to add so much unnecessary travel when we have plenty of teams to play in SoCal?
CAHA tried that 3 seasons ago. SCAHA games counted travel for CAHA weekends for north south games. That was before my kid played but I think it only lasted 1 season. People complained about too few games. Or that's what I remember hearing.
3 seasons ago (see CAHA schedule 2016) CAHA tried to make South happy and had North teams play North teams at a North Rink & South teams playing South teams at a South rink. Then North teams and South teams would travel to play each other during CAHA weekends at North or South rinks.
The difference from this seasons new format and the 2016 format is that South vs South games & North vs North games were held mostly during NON-CAHA weekends. The South teams complained that playing these CAHA games during the NON-CAHA weekends interfered with their South AA league & they lost games. So CAHA went back to the regular format.
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My son played Tier that year as a PW. They combined 2 ideas:
-Reduced season to 1 CAHA weekend per south team.
-Made all "SCAHA" games part of the normal schedule.
There were 18 teams in the AA, So the entire season boiled down to every team played each other once. 18 game season. This is why people complained. They were still paying all that money and only playing 18 games.
It's interesting to look back on it, because there were 5 Norcal teams that year:
GSE 1
GSE 2
Blackhawks
Colts
Sharks
This year there is going to be how many from Norcal? Meanwhile it seems that their local competion 'A' league has grown to be 9 teams? Seems that in Norcal there is dwindling interest in CAHA and the associated time, expense and Flight nonsense.
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FYI:
Southwest Airlines "California Sale $29" just came out today, for any SoCal parents looking to travel to SJ Jamboree.
fineprint
Must purchase travel by 7/31/19 @ 11:59pm PST
Travel between 08/20/19 thru 12/18/19.
Blackout dates of 9/3/19 as well as 11/22/19 thru 12/2/19
JetBlue also has "Fetch a Deal" = $54 one way and more fineprint
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What is likely the earliest game could be on Friday, Aug 30?
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What is likely the earliest game could be on Friday, Aug 30?
What's the most inconvenient time you can think of? Betcha some governing body has already thought of it.
I've heard games could start at 4pm Friday and could go until 4pm Sunday, but that's merely a rumor at this point.
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What is likely the earliest game could be on Friday, Aug 30?
What's the most inconvenient time you can think of? Betcha some governing body has already thought of it.
I've heard games could start at 4pm Friday and could go until 4pm Sunday, but that's merely a rumor at this point.
The 4pm thing is not a rumor. It was what was reported at the CAHA manager meeting this past saturday.
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So does anyone know when the Jamboree schedule will come out? You know some of us need to make travel plans.
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It is supposed to be released two weeks prior, so next Friday, I think.
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Really?? That’s crazy and inconsiderate! They need to give us more time to plan. Stop wasting our money!
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Really?? That’s crazy and inconsiderate! They need to give us more time to plan. Stop wasting our money!
You can ask teams last year about the extra games they scheduled after the initial schedule was played. I remember that they made Kings1 and Empire both play an extra game. Empire had lost 2 of their top players to injuries that kept them out of the lineup for a month, and still CAHA made them play a 5th game! What was also wonderful about the whole thing is that you don't even know what the scores of the games are, as they don't publish them. If you know enough people you can find out scores through word of mouth, but the whole thing is absurd. They keep pushing this agenda that a lot of people don't want, in violation of their own statements when they created the system. They had ample evidence that there were about 15-16 teams that should have been in Flight 1 last year, and for that reason they shouldn't have Flighted it, but they went ahead and did it anyways. AGAIN they had a Flight2 team win the play-in game. Just nonsense and a screwed up season for 8-10 teams from Flight 1 & 2 who weren't good enough to beat the top 3 or 4 teams in Flight 1, but otherwise were all pretty evenly matched and would have experienced close competitive games.
The Flight1 7-9 teams had 2 wins each and on the last day of the last CAHA weekend were playing for 8th place. I'm sure that wasn't an enjoyable season for any of them. Meanwhile you had Flight2 with 4 teams, that all beat each other once, all had 38+ goal differentials, and in some cases had played games within a goal or 2 of eventual Flight 1 teams.
Now this is just from my recollection but last year here's something that happened:
Flyers lost to JK2 3-2 (Also was Flyers 1st game/scrimmage/whatever of the season.)
JK2 beat Bears 2 1-0
Flyers beat JK1 3-2
Also, just as a reminder --- it was a um, 40 minute running time "exhibition!"
So what happens? Before the weekend was even up, Bears2 had been told they were in Flight1. Flyers and JK1 were put in Flight 2.
This is the Jamboree evaluation system at work. It's a joke. It's political and everything else you can imagine. They will over value a GSE team and place them into Flight1 when they are marginal. They will screw over some club with no clout like empire, the wave or the flyers. Last season they forced down the Wave team (who to be fair were a marginal team) yet they left OCHC2 in AA. Even after OCHC2 picked up some of the wave players, the combined team went 0-16 in Flight2 with a -114 goal differential.
But, it's ok if they screw over Flight2, because it's all about Flight1 right?
Records / Goal Differential for Flight 1 bottom 4 teams last season:
#6 (7- 11 -1) -20
#7 (3 - 13 - 0) -40
#8 (3 - 13 - 0) -50
#9 (2 - 14 - 1) - 43
This is not an anomoly. You can look at both years of Flighting from 12u - 18u, as well as looking at division after division and you see the same patterns emerge. There will be teams at the top middle and bottom and your relative competitiveness is reflected in your goal differential. Often there are 2-4 teams that beat 95% of the rest of the division, often by large margins.
Sadly, way too many people I've talked to still have the delusional belief that this system is better than what came before it, and results in more high quality games, when the numbers show that is a joke. You can do more to weed out the occasional team that has no business playing in a division they don't belong in, but they haven't been good at even doing that. In the process what they've done to a large number of legitimate AA teams in the last 2 seasons is criminal.
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I'm a fan of the Flight system, but not a fan of the Jamboree. I'd rather play a tournament with real games over Labor Day. Someone had a great idea of a few local tournments with the evaluators attending these, great idea!
As a Flight 1 parent, you want your boys to be playing competitive games. The top five teams in Flight 1 were the best teams in 14U AA and they should be playing each other more than once per season.
There were 2-3 teams in Flight 1 and 2 that could have been flip flopped, but the results would have been the same. I personally think Kings 1 got screwed, if you have two teams on the bubble, the older bigger team should get the Flight 1 nod. Kings 2 making Flight 1 looked totally political to me and I wouldn't doubt the Jr Kings had a say in which team got the nod.
Flight 2 parents will always complain, and Flight 1 parents will be happy that their Sundays and CAHA weekends aren't a waste of time.
Last thing, the Jamboree isn't about scores, it doesn't matter if you tied or lost by one goal, if you beat a team by 2 goals and another team lost to the same team by 4. The evaluators are watching the games for skill level.
And I hope 16U AA gets flighted this year.
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I can save a lot of people money and time. Let the teams declare what they want. If they do not win a league game, their program cannot have a AA team for two years. The ENTIRE PROGRAM. Apply this rule and watch the declarations slowly become more reasonable. It would take a couple of years to sink in, but what coach wants to lose his tier program by declaring something far above the kids' ability?
If it works, port the idea to A teams and AAA teams with modifications to make it reasonably accommodating of the level.
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No other state does anything quite like the evaluation jamboree. It all happens just two weeks after the official start of practices. A fun weekend, a nice getaway, a re-connection with now old friends, but as far as hockey development goes, the event is an utter waste of time and money. The jamboree is an obstacle to the goals of most serious players, coaches and teams.
There will be a flighting and if you go back two pages, we already pretty much determined what teams are in flight 2.
See you all in San Jose to watch run time games shrouded in secrecy with perhaps evaluators showing up or not to be found. Politics, sure you bet, we are all watching.