Peewee AA 2017-2018

[In The Crease]

In the crease:

You suggest that hockey is a meritocracy when that is often far from the truth.  The level of hockey really has nothing to do with it at these ages when kids are supposed to be developing their skills and hockey acumen.  There are plenty of ways for a kid to learn about the harsh realities of adult life, and plenty of time to do so.  We are talking about adolescents here, not mini NHL journeymen.

Does a 3rd line parent pay a reduced fee?  Does the coach come up at signing and tell you:  "Hey your kid is going to be on the 3rd line all year and if we have a close game, they will play 2 shifts in the 3rd for approximately 1 minute."  And for the record, we played OC1 several times this season, and when it was close I saw how much the 4 lines were rolled, which is to say, I saw the same kids out on back to back shifts. 


I understand that when a game is on the line, a coach is often going to try and win the game.  When it's a tournament championship or the playoffs, the stronger kids are going to play more.  Kids that are completely outclassed may be sheltered, and for good reason. 

My point is that a good coach spreads the coaching AND the game opportunity around.  My kid has been in both situations on both types of teams.  For all the shit talking that people on this board do about the prospects for their kids (and of course you have a much better idea when your kid is 16), the reality is that not all kids develop at the same time.  Some mature earlier and others later.  Nobody knows for certain what type of player they might be in 5 or 7 years, or the potential they might have to succeed at a higher level of hockey at the age of 12.   Take for example, the story of Misty Copeland, who started Ballet at the age of 13, when most girls are well into their peak growth velocity period.  Copeland would eventually become the principal dancer at the American Ballet Theater.  Sweden discourages early specialization in sports, and has an incredible track record in the modern era, of developing some of the top NHL defenseman and Goalies, not to mention a long list of quality forwards, when the entire country has a population of 9 million.


One thing's for sure, and that is this:  if a kid has lost the desire to play the sport, it doesn't matter what their potential might be. 
Kids aren't stupid, and they know when coaches don't like them, or value them, or see their potential.  It's human nature that coaches have favorites, but a really good coach will hide their biases better than a bad one, and if you spend any significant time watching practices and games, you should know whether your coaches are investing their time and attention on your child in a way that justifies your expenditure of time and money.

A meritocracy can mean the people in power are the most skilled/talented or that those with the most skill/talent deserve the most attention.  In this case I assume you are referring to coaching.  I did not say either.  I said that I want my kids to earn their ice time.  I also said at the Tier level.  Many of your arguments would be valid if playing at the YMCA, city, etc.  If you want every kid to get a participation medal and equal ice time across the board play rec hockey.  I absolutely agree with you on the development of all kids.  Game situations are not the only time there is coaching and development.  I didn't say anything about mini NHL'ers, but again if you are playing Tier hockey, I expect it is because you want to continue at higher level.  You ask does a third line parent pay less than a first line?  Absolutely not!  If you were a smart parent you would have asked the coach where he/she sees your child on the team (ie, 2nd line, 4th line, power play, penalty kill).  If you didn't, shame on you.  Once you know this, and you see.... hmmm there are 20 kids and my kid is likely 3rd line without special teams play, do I want to sign?  If I do sign, do I think my child will develop enough to earn more ice time?  But once you have signed, quit blaming others and work on what you can do to be better etc.  At Tier level you are not only trying to win games in tournaments and playoffs.  You can see the system the teams have to work in with Flight 1 and Flight 2, and only so many teams make playoffs, etc.  Not to mention the clubs want to attract other players the next season.  EVERY game matters at this level!  I fully agree with your comments on developing at different ages and playing multiple sports.  In fact, I have personal experience with it.  Coaching and development is not only game situations and in fact that is what practice, lessons, and work at home is for.  Your last paragraph finally brings ownership to yourself.  If you are unhappy with your decision, make a new one.  But the decision was yours and no one's fault but your own.  Move on.  In this case, go find a different coach/club.         

[Racetonowhere]

Race to no where - Much better skill development?  Were they working on their cherry picking skills? Unfortunately those didn't work so well for them.   Kings even played down a guy and the lines were all mixed up.  How bad could it have been?  I'd be worried if I were the Ducks.   Expected a lot more from an all 05 team.

It's well known that pwaa flight 1 teams work on skill development when they  play flight 2 teams and don't care about the score. I think even BobbyOrr#4 will confirm this. I don't even think that flight 1 versus flight 2 games count in MyHockey rankings. And if it doesn't affect your ranking, why would you possibly care about the score?

[Norcal1]

But the decision was yours and no one's fault but your own.  Move on.  In this case, go find a different coach/club.         

Well said, In the Crease.

Every year you hear parents who whine about the decision THEY made. We do not have as many available choices up in the North as the South does. But the  I always tell parent is, did the team or your kid improve throughout the year. Does he get the playing time to develop. Does the coach meet your personal philosophies or goals.

These are questions you need to ask every year.

We have been fortunate to have a good coach that I have seen get the best out of the kids and has taken his team to the state playoffs that last 3 years.

[Icelife]

Obviously In the Crease is happy with their decision last season. I don’t think anyone is doubting that...
On the contrary, parents were “promised” development at the beginning part of the season which included ice time. Not only by coaches by but the club because of the percentages needed to meet PDR. This was part of the recruitment process or shall I say marketing pitch, in order for the AA team OC wanted to run in addition to a another AA team that had at most a few AA caliber players. There were kids who played on OC 2 that were returning to OC but decided not to play for the coach which made the PDR requirement that much more of an issue for OC1. That resulted in recruiting players that would never had been selected to play had the PDR been met, but parents who did ask realistic questions about play time (as In the Crease suggested), were given empty answers. Most parents on OC were told, your kid will improve so much when pushed by the coach as well as playing more skilled and faster teams...Every parent on the team knows that but there are loyalists who’s kids are the “favorites” so turn a blind eye. After all, their kid gets to play and couldn’t be happier. What they forget is, without those kids, OC 1 would not have been able to play AA. The argument becomes, no wonder why kid-A gets 1 min of ice time a game because he doesn’t have the talent or skill to play more, but how would he develop if never given the chance during real play? Not to mention the coach pulling his favorites during the intermission and leaving the other 60% to hear “chalk talk” from an assistant coach.
We all know hockey in CA requires a pocketbook that can include extra lessons and stick times and those who work hard grow in the sport. However, those same 1 min kids are also putting in the extra effort but not given the chance to use or even develop their skills without play. Did the favorites get punished or benched when a goal was scored when they were on the ice or took a lazy/stupid penalty? Shame on those parents who tried to have discussions with the coach and manager about issues brought forth and questions about how to encourage their child to show improvement that could result in more play time because that is what in-house  levels are for and not 12Y/o hockey tier hockey. 🙄Clearly the loyalists suggest deal with what you signed up for and move on next year...
Lastly, how did that work out for OC by the way? Did the favorites come through when it mattered? The score sheets show that answer...

[Racetonowhere]

Kings 2 over Ducks 1 5-4 in an upset

Yes, but Ducks 1 had much better skill development in the game.

I thought this was a pretty good joke until I saw this...

Race to no where - Much better skill development?  Were they working on their cherry picking skills? Unfortunately those didn't work so well for them.   Kings even played down a guy and the lines were all mixed up.  How bad could it have been?  I'd be worried if I were the Ducks.   Expected a lot more from an all 05 team.

It's well known that pwaa flight 1 teams work on skill development when they  play flight 2 teams and don't care about the score. I think even BobbyOrr#4 will confirm this. I don't even think that flight 1 versus flight 2 games count in MyHockey rankings. And if it doesn't affect your ranking, why would you possibly care about the score?

Now I think you're winning the Race to Stupidville.

ouch!   Stupidville? You must be French. Is that near Kraft HockeyVille?
You know what's stupid? Anybody taking seriously anything having to do with the score of a game in  pw hockey. Nobody cares, not even your kid.

[In The Crease]

Obviously In the Crease is happy with their decision last season. I don’t think anyone is doubting that...
On the contrary, parents were “promised” development at the beginning part of the season which included ice time. Not only by coaches by but the club because of the percentages needed to meet PDR. This was part of the recruitment process or shall I say marketing pitch, in order for the AA team OC wanted to run in addition to a another AA team that had at most a few AA caliber players. There were kids who played on OC 2 that were returning to OC but decided not to play for the coach which made the PDR requirement that much more of an issue for OC1. That resulted in recruiting players that would never had been selected to play had the PDR been met, but parents who did ask realistic questions about play time (as In the Crease suggested), were given empty answers. Most parents on OC were told, your kid will improve so much when pushed by the coach as well as playing more skilled and faster teams...Every parent on the team knows that but there are loyalists who’s kids are the “favorites” so turn a blind eye. After all, their kid gets to play and couldn’t be happier. What they forget is, without those kids, OC 1 would not have been able to play AA. The argument becomes, no wonder why kid-A gets 1 min of ice time a game because he doesn’t have the talent or skill to play more, but how would he develop if never given the chance during real play? Not to mention the coach pulling his favorites during the intermission and leaving the other 60% to hear “chalk talk” from an assistant coach.
We all know hockey in CA requires a pocketbook that can include extra lessons and stick times and those who work hard grow in the sport. However, those same 1 min kids are also putting in the extra effort but not given the chance to use or even develop their skills without play. Did the favorites get punished or benched when a goal was scored when they were on the ice or took a lazy/stupid penalty? Shame on those parents who tried to have discussions with the coach and manager about issues brought forth and questions about how to encourage their child to show improvement that could result in more play time because that is what in-house  levels are for and not 12Y/o hockey tier hockey. 🙄Clearly the loyalists suggest deal with what you signed up for and move on next year...
Lastly, how did that work out for OC by the way? Did the favorites come through when it mattered? The score sheets show that answer...

Seriously?  I have never commented on my decision with any of my kids, and no one asked or questioned.  You simply start arguments that aren't there.  Do not make a straw man argument with your comment "Shame on those parents who tried to have discussions with the coach and manager about issues brought forth and questions about how to encourage their child to show improvement that could result in more play time because that is what in-house  levels are for and not 12Y/o hockey tier hockey. 🙄 " You are trying to imply that I or anyone else is indicating shame for trying to bring issues and questions to Coach or Manager during the season!  You absolutely should communicate and ask the coach and manager questions.  That is how you work on what you must change to improve the situation.  Shame is for the parent who did not ask before signing about where their kid fits, or had a poor experience for themselves and then wants to bash a coach. Again, since you can't seem to grasp it.  In house is for equal ice time, development all situations, and the participation medal.  Worrying about their own kid does not mean they turned a blind eye.  I am sure they know and actually appreciate all the kids for helping meet the requirements imposed by CAHA (not the club or coach).  Maybe you need a participation medal for that too?  What does being responsible for your own decision have to do with being a loyalist?  Incredible.  Yes, deal with your decision, take responsibility for yourself, and make a new decision.  How can that be construed into being a loyalist?

[lcadad]

In the crease:


Let's start with the fact that we don't know each other, and not make any assumptions.  I am speaking philosophically and generally and nothing I wrote is aimed at you personally.  I avoid talking about my son specifically, and that's one of the basic rules of this forum as well.


I find the old "find a participation trophy sport" to be a tired cliche.  Things do not have to be AYSO soccer or "serious travel hockey."  There is a place in between, and much of that has to do with the coaches.


Specifically, in response to you:


Kids "earning ice time"  via some sort of merit based system = meritocracy.


We didn't play for OC1.  Nor would we have, given the 20 players.

• I have talked to every coach of every team my son was on, but that's besides the point.  If you think that coaches are entirely circumspect or even clear on their own thoughts about a player, your experience is different than a lot of people.
• I'm glad you brought up winning.  It's often overrated.   With that said, we evaluated a few options this year, including playing for a team that was very likely to be a stronger one than the one we chose.  My determination was that I wanted my kid to have a substantial role on the team, and it was a lot harder to tell what might happen on the stronger team.

I understand that coaches face pressure to win.  It's unfortunate, but I take the long view.  You measure a coach by the players they coached who remember them as a solid role model and teacher years later.  A coach can have a big impact both positive and negative in the life of a kid.  Some of the most respected coaches in the sport have up and down years. And before this gets misconstrued, sports in my opinion are and should be played to win -- by the participants.    The problem is when parents, coaches and organizations (ie. the adults who should know better) put winning ahead of the development of the kids involved in the program.  I feel sorry for people who are chasing participation in team success from club to club.  As you suggest there are many legitimate reasons for people to move from one club to another, but the reputation for having "winning hockey teams" isn't a great one unless the winning can be directly attributed to a specific coach you are hoping to have your kid play for, and their track record for developing kids in the sport.

[In The Crease]

Icada:  A lot to like in your last post.  I agree with the cliche even.  It is a worn phrase of common knowledge.  Really, in the end, everyone wants whats best for their kids as do the coaches.  There is a middle ground. It is the blame of others that I have a problem with.  To emphasize your point about a track record developing kids in the sport is very important.  Many will feel a coach did that for them and others won't.  The ones that don't should not blame others, they should realize that situation was not right for them look for the right situation.  There are many kids who really respect that coach and will never forget what he did for them.

[Mcdonaldmom04]

This shit is getting good! It’s turning out to be the best reality show of the week.  This is turning in to a who’s dick is bigger competition, but Just between us girls. I’m taking that metal. You can all get in line for your participation trophies. 


Obviously I’m not hiding behind some well thought out screen name and anyone who know the OC team knows who I am and that I speak my mind. That being said...We were all in the same room after tryouts we all saw how many were in the room I’m pretty sure that we all knew from his talk at that time what we were signing up for. The team also had parent meetings for various reasons throughout the season and no one brought up any problems.  All of us on the team had the Coaches phone # and email address. I know for a fact that the Coach sent out an email after play downs letting everyone know if they wanted an exit meeting to discuss the season to email him.


So to those that are unhappy with the season you have the opportunity to voice that with the Coach. Unless you like to celebrate your pity party with a crowd and need some poor you attention. 


It seems to happen that when the teams are doing good, nothing is being said, but as soon as the shit hits the fan people are quick to point fingers and find a place for blame to go.


My kids had a great season not because of playing or not playing, but because of the friendships he made. He said that playing was a perk.


My advice is to take a deep breath and move forward and there will be another season.

[ABCDE]

Ha!!  Participation trophies!!  Nice one.  At least this thread is finally picking up, even if it's to state the obvious.  Any reasonable person looking across at the 20-player bench can deduce that, by the end of the season, there will probably be some parents upset about playing time.  With games being 45-51 minutes, depending on venue, that's not a lot of ice time spread out among 18 skaters.  If they weren't rolling the lines, which I can't stand to see at this level, some people will be unhappy by the end of season.  No matter what, their season issues couldn't have been as bad as the other OC team.  I heard there was some serious discontent there.  Ice time aside, were parents happy with Shand's coaching style?  People pointed out a decline in their record.  That would be my biggest issue.  Regardless, you want to progress through the season.  But as M@sshole pointed out some losses were close, so maybe there's more than the record shows.  What other coaches were standouts for good or bad reasons?  My kid is working his ass off to become the best first liner in the beer league in a few years, so I want to know the best coaches for next season.   

[cuthecrap]

Just aggregated thoughts over the last couple of pages:

• Skill development of you kid is no one's responsibility other than yours (lessons, camps, videos, dryland...) and your kid's (hard work, persistence, drive...) - don't blame the coaches
• parents of the kids from the "third line" or that third weaker kid on some balanced lines who don't get to play much on PP: if you didn't know your kid would be in that situation and signed up, you made a mistake and it's kinda your own mistake: not enough homework, not enough work on your kid, delusion, etc.
• kids on the third lines (or their parents) who signed up for the third line knowingly in hopes that your kid would develop better going against stronger kids rather than against weaker kids division lower - how many of those did really work harder than the kids from the first line outside the team's time? To answer this question and it's probably most important one - you have to know realistically how hard the kids from the first line worked to get there (I know sometimes, rarely - it's just talent), but then this is part of the reality - sometimes third liners don't have enough talent, most of the time - they don't work hard enough to catch up.

[Meanstreet5150]

I doubt the Ducks 1 have anything to fret about. I was told 5 top kids didn't show, Kings coach moved game from NHL rink to 1/2 sheet Pond at least minute, advantage little guys. Gave NHL rink to Beer league. Heard the Ducks just shot pucks, no body play at all, let the little guys run under their legs. Lets see how CAHA sorts out

[#4BobbyOrr]

I doubt the Ducks 1 have anything to fret about. I was told 5 top kids didn't show, Kings coach moved game from NHL rink to 1/2 sheet Pond at least minute, advantage little guys. Gave NHL rink to Beer league. Heard the Ducks just shot pucks, no body play at all, let the little guys run under their legs. Lets see how CAHA sorts out

Wrong. Game was always scheduled on the pond that is the jk2's regular thursday practice slot. The ice was the same size for both teams, not sure why that gives a smaller team an advantage. And 7 of their top 8 point getters were there according to their roster and caha stats. Unless you meant something else when you used the phrase "didn't show."

[Racetonowhere]

I doubt the Ducks 1 have anything to fret about. I was told 5 top kids didn't show, Kings coach moved game from NHL rink to 1/2 sheet Pond at least minute, advantage little guys. Gave NHL rink to Beer league. Heard the Ducks just shot pucks, no body play at all, let the little guys run under their legs. Lets see how CAHA sorts out

Wrong. Game was always scheduled on the pond that is the jk2's regular thursday practice slot. The ice was the same size for both teams, not sure why that gives a smaller team an advantage. And 7 of their top 8 point getters were there according to their roster and caha stats. Unless you meant something else when you used the phrase "didn't show."
[/quote. Did you check the corsi ratings at the pond of the ducks players that didn’t show?

[Kalishock]

*** Crickets ***