CAHA Tier 2 Peewee/Bantam changes for 2017-2018

[lcadad]

I've spoken to a number of people about these changes.  From those conversations and some discussion here, I received a number of ideas as to how best to communicate these concerns to CAHA. 


Obviously one way to handle this is through the member clubs, but the reality is that the CAHA board already passed this right through to implementation. 

In searching for another avenue of expression, there's the email address provided with the announcement, however, direct communications doesn't provide any visibility or transparency.

If you are concerned or downright disagree with the plans for CAHA Tier 2, there's another option:  this online Petition.

The url for the Petition for sharing is:  https://www.ipetitions.com/petition/call-to-abandon-unnecessary-and-problematic


If there's enough interest, I'll make sure that the petition is forwarded to the CAHA board. 

[HockeyDadx3]

I've spoken to a number of people about these changes.  From those conversations and some discussion here, I received a number of ideas as to how best to communicate these concerns to CAHA. 


Obviously one way to handle this is through the member clubs, but the reality is that the CAHA board already passed this right through to implementation. 

In searching for another avenue of expression, there's the email address provided with the announcement, however, direct communications doesn't provide any visibility or transparency.

If you are concerned or downright disagree with the plans for CAHA Tier 2, there's another option:  this online Petition.

The url for the Petition for sharing is:  https://www.ipetitions.com/petition/call-to-abandon-unnecessary-and-problematic


If there's enough interest, I'll make sure that the petition is forwarded to the CAHA board.

Holy sh*t!

California youth hockey is a train wreck if parents are starting petitions because of how jacked the system is.

Thank you baby Jesus that we no longer live there and have to deal with CAHA. Props and good luck to all the players and parents that endure the madness out there.

[Pistonkev]

I've spoken to a number of people about these changes.  From those conversations and some discussion here, I received a number of ideas as to how best to communicate these concerns to CAHA. 


Obviously one way to handle this is through the member clubs, but the reality is that the CAHA board already passed this right through to implementation. 

In searching for another avenue of expression, there's the email address provided with the announcement, however, direct communications doesn't provide any visibility or transparency.

If you are concerned or downright disagree with the plans for CAHA Tier 2, there's another option:  this online Petition.

The url for the Petition for sharing is:  https://www.ipetitions.com/petition/call-to-abandon-unnecessary-and-problematic


If there's enough interest, I'll make sure that the petition is forwarded to the CAHA board.

Holy sh*t!

California youth hockey is a train wreck if parents are starting petitions because of how jacked the system is.

Thank you baby Jesus that we no longer live there and have to deal with CAHA. Props and good luck to all the players and parents that endure the madness out there.

Bro! The Struggle is real. 

[Panther Coach]

I've spoken to a number of people about these changes.  From those conversations and some discussion here, I received a number of ideas as to how best to communicate these concerns to CAHA. 


Obviously one way to handle this is through the member clubs, but the reality is that the CAHA board already passed this right through to implementation. 

In searching for another avenue of expression, there's the email address provided with the announcement, however, direct communications doesn't provide any visibility or transparency.

If you are concerned or downright disagree with the plans for CAHA Tier 2, there's another option:  this online Petition.

The url for the Petition for sharing is:  https://www.ipetitions.com/petition/call-to-abandon-unnecessary-and-problematic


If there's enough interest, I'll make sure that the petition is forwarded to the CAHA board.

Holy sh*t!

California youth hockey is a train wreck if parents are starting petitions because of how jacked the system is.

Thank you baby Jesus that we no longer live there and have to deal with CAHA. Props and good luck to all the players and parents that endure the madness out there.

Bro! The Struggle is real. 

This is a new low for parents of SoCal hockey.  I have 2 boys that play Tier hockey with the other 15-18 "AA" teams.  Here is my $.02 on the past couple seasons.  There are a lot of teams in every division from B-AA which is great for the sport and CA hockey in general.  Are there teams that are in the wrong classification, absolutely.  Bottom end AA teams in some cases would beat up on A teams like we saw with the Wave 3 last year.  I think some things can be improved with the new system and time will tell, it doesn't bother me especially at the Bantam level having 2 divisions as it relates to league for AA.  My prediction is that it will look a lot like a Major and Minor division but the kids will have more fun.  My son was on one of the top AA Bantam teams last year and going to games and watching quite a few double digit blow outs wasn't good for anyone.  It also makes it very tough to move in the standings if all the playoff contenders are not playing each other enough to change the standings.  The top 5-6 teams had 2-3 losses all year and drummed on the bottom of the field.  In the new system the bottom half of the field will be playing against teams that are likely their age and skill in their minor year.  The whole non-sense about playoffs will not play into this as the top teams will remain the top teams and be in playoffs. 

I remember last year in the MLK tournament in Orange County the Bantam AA division played pool play and then the playoffs divided into two brackets, Elite and AA.  The SD Saints ended up winning a banner in AA.  That team got drummed on in league for most of their games, but I will tell you those kids were pretty excited to skate with that banner and wear their medals.  They didn't care about whether it was Elite or AA, they just wanted to compete and win. 

My guess is the people generating and signing this petition will be in the lower bracket and the parents can't stand to admit it. 

[BlindZebras]

Some good points Panther Coach.  That Wave team probably wasn't a "bottom end AA team", they would have probably finished middle of the pack which ain't too shabby for a predominantly minor year team.  The only issues I have with the new rules are: 1) I don't think the 1st place team should automatically go to States - that is ridiculous; and 2) I guess we don't have enough info yet on how many teams will be allowed to play up in the higher flight.  Is it 8? 10? 12?  No way should they be able to pigeon hole the perceived 9-12 teams to a lower flight with only one of them getting the chance to win their way into the playdowns.  I truly believe there should be some preseason relegation going on, but this seems like a pretty convoluted way to handle it.

[Pistonkev]

Some good points Panther Coach.  That Wave team probably wasn't a "bottom end AA team", they would have probably finished middle of the pack which ain't too shabby for a predominantly minor year team.  The only issues I have with the new rules are: 1) I don't think the 1st place team should automatically go to States - that is ridiculous; and 2) I guess we don't have enough info yet on how many teams will be allowed to play up in the higher flight.  Is it 8? 10? 12?  No way should they be able to pigeon hole the perceived 9-12 teams to a lower flight with only one of them getting the chance to win their way into the playdowns.  I truly believe there should be some preseason relegation going on, but this seems like a pretty convoluted way to handle it.

That and the fact we won't have more info until after tryouts is a Joke.

[Panther Coach]

Some good points Panther Coach.  That Wave team probably wasn't a "bottom end AA team", they would have probably finished middle of the pack which ain't too shabby for a predominantly minor year team.  The only issues I have with the new rules are: 1) I don't think the 1st place team should automatically go to States - that is ridiculous; and 2) I guess we don't have enough info yet on how many teams will be allowed to play up in the higher flight.  Is it 8? 10? 12?  No way should they be able to pigeon hole the perceived 9-12 teams to a lower flight with only one of them getting the chance to win their way into the playdowns.  I truly believe there should be some preseason relegation going on, but this seems like a pretty convoluted way to handle it.

I would agree with both of your points as well.  Not sure that 1st place moves through and the # of teams would be good info.  Until declarations are made by clubs to see the number of teams in a division I guess it could be difficult to say how many teams are in each bracket. 

[lcadad]

Hey Panther Coach,

Every year in every division there will be teams that are absolutely over their head.  Dividing AA into divisions will do nothing to change that.   It just might make those teams a bit less uncomfortable at the expense of the teams that are closer to the median point of the overall division.  Those teams will be getting outright screwed. 

As BlindZebras pointed out, the teams fighting for the final playoff spot in the top tier will be getting  screwed.  The entire system is bizarre.  They don't have this on the east coast.  They don't have it in Minnnesota.  They don't have it in Colorado.  They don't have it in Detroit.  What do the CAHA people know that these other traditional hockey markets don't?

As you mentioned, tournaments are a way for teams that have come to some realizations about their capabilities to seek out opportunities for competition where they might have more success than they are having in their league, and I see teams using the traditional tournament weekends to do that already. 

It's another thing entirely to try and turn an entire league into a mini-tournament in order to proactively protect a group of teams from themselves and the other teams they might play.

The argument that overall competition is better if there are less teams in a division assumes a perfect world.  The reality is often quite different.  For example, in a division a few years back, there were 12 teams.  3 of the teams in the division were better than all the other 9 teams, and in fact never lost to any teams below the top 3. 

Some teams had to play the top 3 teams 2x each, while others ended up playing them 1x.    Strength of schedule issues creep in and can cost bubble teams a place in the playoffs.  Just like in the NHL, that is life.

Just because you divide teams into divisions, you aren't magically going to create parity.  There will be winners and losers.  Tier 1 provides ample proof of that.  If anything the problem in socal is that they are not growing Tier 1.   

[Crash]

Nicely argued.


My belief is that the way to make a successful team is to keep a core of kids together with the same coach for at least two years.  I don't think that's a lot to ask. If parents and teams had to make a two year commitment, I think it would shake out a lot of the crap that goes on.


Each team could be allowed perhaps 2 or 3 exceptions per season for kids that move or quit hockey or get injuried. This is aside from kids that age out, of course.


It would also force coaches to evaluate kids more carefully before they sign them.


Of course I'm not holding my breath for CAHA to do anything wise. But I am interested in everyone's thoughts and suggestions.

[Panther Coach]

Hey Panther Coach,

Every year in every division there will be teams that are absolutely over their head.  Dividing AA into divisions will do nothing to change that.   It just might make those teams a bit less uncomfortable at the expense of the teams that are closer to the median point of the overall division.  Those teams will be getting outright screwed. 

As BlindZebras pointed out, the teams fighting for the final playoff spot in the top tier will be getting  screwed.  The entire system is bizarre.  They don't have this on the east coast.  They don't have it in Minnnesota.  They don't have it in Colorado.  They don't have it in Detroit.  What do the CAHA people know that these other traditional hockey markets don't?

As you mentioned, tournaments are a way for teams that have come to some realizations about their capabilities to seek out opportunities for competition where they might have more success than they are having in their league, and I see teams using the traditional tournament weekends to do that already. 

It's another thing entirely to try and turn an entire league into a mini-tournament in order to proactively protect a group of teams from themselves and the other teams they might play.

The argument that overall competition is better if there are less teams in a division assumes a perfect world.  The reality is often quite different.  For example, in a division a few years back, there were 12 teams.  3 of the teams in the division were better than all the other 9 teams, and in fact never lost to any teams below the top 3. 

Some teams had to play the top 3 teams 2x each, while others ended up playing them 1x.    Strength of schedule issues creep in and can cost bubble teams a place in the playoffs.  Just like in the NHL, that is life.

Just because you divide teams into divisions, you aren't magically going to create parity.  There will be winners and losers.  Tier 1 provides ample proof of that.  If anything the problem in socal is that they are not growing Tier 1.   

I can appreciate some of your points.  I don't know that there is a perfect scenario amongst hockey parents.  Using your example from MN or Detroit leagues, is that there are multiple leagues within in the state unlike CA.  We have one league that has way too many teams (good for the sport) at every level but Tier I.  I would offer is it time to create more than one league for Tier II based on geography like MN or MI then feed into a playoff system?

What would be your proposed solution to CAHA in lieu of the change or leaving it like years past?

One other thing take a look at how a Little Ceasers league in MI is organized.  Multiple levels for Tier II by birth year.  http://myhockeyrankings.com/league_info.php?l=8

[Puck Yeah]

The objective is quite understandable.  Is this the proper solution? is the question.  The mid level teams have the most to lose.  Unfortunately the mid level teams are the teams that are most likely to shift positions throughout the season,  Supposing two 8 team brackets:  Team 10 may well be a number 8 team by the end of the season and would be a playoff contender.  Under this scenario they are stymied.  In contrast a team 6 or 7 my not have developed and would be a 9 or 10 in an open system, but by rule that would still be a playoff contender.


It is easy to point out the difficulties but not as easy to find the solution.

[Hockey05]

Some good points here.


Yes, the mid-level teams have the most to lose.  I think for a lot of us there are the thoughts of who and where did the idea originate from?  And what is the motivation for this sudden change?  While clearly peewee A is not AA, there was a very hard fought division with probably 15 teams that deserved to be in that division.  I'd make the argument there should have been a play-in playoff with 12 teams making it and the top 4 earning byes.   
Certainly, no one ever considered geography in putting this together.  Do Nor Cal & So Cal teams really need to travel twice to play each other in the regular season and then a third time in the playoffs? 


Does this plan go along with USA Hockey's research that down time and other sports are good for long term development?  We all tend to enjoy watching our kid skate but do all us really need to see each other July 4th weekend because we have to be ready for Labor Day? 


If the talent level is so deep that two divisions are needed, why isn't there a serious look at how more players can be funneled into Tier 1?  There are a dearth of teams at that level. 


IMO, much of what we are seeing by the CAHA board is a reaction to things that happened multiple years ago and an overall thought that hockey parents really don't know better, the need for a decision to be made for them.


Panther Coach, we have no real way to communicate with the board and to offer our input.  To go to our local club board member, coach or president can be viewed as an afterthought or just another gripe (And hey, no need to rub anyone the wrong way during tryout season    )  I actually think the petition is a well thought out way to handle it. 

[Area 51]

Everyone should write to USA Hockey about CAHA's oppressive over regulation.

[station26]

And to add............ Of all the places you can send everyone to determine their strength, the CAHA board picks San Jose??? So while the vast majority of your member clubs are in So Cal you pick San Jose!!  Really?? Personally I'm glad our time is here is about done. This just keeps getting worse and worse.

[Puckdaddy]

And to add............ Of all the places you can send everyone to determine their strength, the CAHA board picks San Jose??? So while the vast majority of your member clubs are in So Cal you pick San Jose!!  Really?? Personally I'm glad our time is here is about done. This just keeps getting worse and worse.

As I posted in the Midget section, there is a reason that the Ducks and Kings High School Leagues continue to grow and take players out of SCHAHA/CAHA, many of who would have played AA hockey in the past.