Tier II Flight System. This is gonna make for a hell of a thread......

[Puck Yeah]

CAHA Tier II Flight System Administration Guidelines for 2017-18 Season
Jun 19, 2017  7:32 PM
On June 17, 2017, the CAHA Board of Directors adopted the following CAHA Tier II Flight System Administration Guidelines

1)   All Tier II teams will be required to participate in Preseason Evaluation Jamboree; failure to attend will result in disqualification from all Tier II participation.
2)   In order to ‘Flight’ a division there must be a minimum of 12 teams (6 teams per flight minimum).
3)   Flight 1 will have a maximum of 10 teams.
4)   CAHA may schedule multiple rounds of games within the CAHA weekends to assure each team gets 12 – 18 games.
5)   If after preseason jamboree evaluation the Evaluation Committee determines a particular division cannot be equitably split into two divisions that division will play as a whole without being split into two flights.
6)   Evaluation Jamboree format will be 1‐hour mini game slots, with a 3 minute warmup, (2) 25 minute runtime periods, and a 1 minute intermission between periods.
7)   Teams will play minimum of four (4) games (any team may be asked to play a 5th game at the jamboree at the request of the evaluation committee).
   The two weeks following the Preseason Evaluation Jamboree, teams are subject to being required to play further evaluation “prove me” game(s) within their respective leagues (SCAHA/NORCAL) if requested by the Evaluation Committee.
9)   CAHA will ensure no less than three (3) evaluators are assessing each age division (if possible, evaluators will not review multiple age divisions).
10)   Tier II Playdowns will still be an 8 team playdown.
11)   Flight 1/Flight 2 Playdown Scenarios: a.   Flight 1 has 6 teams; #1 and #2 seed from Flight 2 advance to playdowns.
b.   Flight 1 has 7 teams; #1 seed from Flight 2 advances to playdowns.
c.   Flight 1 has 8 teams; #1 seed from Flight 2 has play‐in game against Flight 1 #8 seed, winner advances to playdowns.
d.   Flight 1 has 9 teams; #1 seed from Flight 2 has play‐in game against Flight 1 #8 seed, winner advances to playdowns.
e.   Flight 1 has 10 teams; #1 seed from Flight 2 has play‐in game against Flight 1 #8 seed, winner advances to playdowns.
12)   When Flight 2 #1 seed has play‐in game against Flight 1 #8 seed, the Flight 1 team shall be the home team, with the Flight 2 team traveling to play said game.
13)   In the event a Flight 2 #1 seed declines the opportunity for the play‐in game, the Flight 1 #8 seed will advance to playdowns.

2017 Jamboree Information:
-   The 2017 CAHA Tier II Jamboree will be held at Sharks Ice San Jose September 1st – 4th.
-   Games may start as early as 5pm on Friday and may end as late as 6pm on Monday.
-   If needed, games may be scheduled at Sharks Ice – Fremont
-   Teams are not required to stay at host hotels.
-   The first two (2) games for each team shall be pre-determined; the following games will be scheduled based on the Evaluation Committee recommendations.
-   The fee for the Jamboree is $900.00 per team , payable to CAHA, and is due by August 20th to:
Laura Cahn
349 Nancy Circle
Vacaville, CA 95687

[hipcheck34]

I am so glad my kid decided not to stay and play AA this year....WOOHOO what a joke this league has turned into.

[Puck Yeah]

I think CAHA has realized the huge problem the original idea was going to cause and has since (with this) tried to remedy the shortcomings.  It remains to be seen if this will have any success in the face what is certain to be at least half the teams offering objection and criticism.


I can see the problem that California has with teams that don't belong in a division insisting on playing in that division.  Whether this will have any positive impact remains to be seen.  Sometimes the cure can be worse than the disease.

[Nowhearthis]

Looking at the club declarations, only 12AA has 16 teams for an 8-8 split.  14AA/16AA have 14 and 13 teams respectively, which would make for a straight simple season of playing all teams once.   Even considering past level disparity, it doesn't seem that all 3 leagues would need to do the Jamboree Junket. 


And then consider that the end result of what is now demanded will be that all the same disparate teams will for sure be playing each other anyway, just showcased for a selected committee at an expensive travel venue. That makes sense!  (BTW can someone tell me how to apply to be a delegate?  Gotta be some comp'd brew there somewhere.)

[Teemu8]

Looking at the club declarations, only 12AA has 16 teams for an 8-8 split.  14AA/16AA have 14 and 13 teams respectively, which would make for a straight simple season of playing all teams once.   Even considering past level disparity, it doesn't seem that all 3 leagues would need to do the Jamboree Junket. 


And then consider that the end result of what is now demanded will be that all the same disparate teams will for sure be playing each other anyway, just showcased for a selected committee at an expensive travel venue. That makes sense!  (BTW can someone tell me how to apply to be a delegate?  Gotta be some comp'd brew there somewhere.)

You're not counting the norcal team declarations... I did not look at 12U or 16U but 14U has 14 in socal and 4 more in norcal.

[Teemu8]

There are 5 16U AA declared in Norcal.  That will make 18 for the state. I dont think they will necessarily go with a straight 9/9 split... if 10 teams belong in flight 1 then it will be 10/8.  If only 7 belong then it will be 7/11...  thats just my understanding of it... I may be completely wrong.

[pucklawyer]

Caha experimented on the AA division without any parent input.  To most, the results of the new format were unfavorable.  Last year, the covert 3 question survey on the topic was not publicly disseminated.  This year, once again, a unilateral decision was made to create a new format without parent input.  The parent's pay for youth hockey.  The members of executive competitive "committee" are not publicly known and they make decisions without parent input.  The meeting over the weekend was not publicly announced.  It is a sad state of affairs when an organization who presumably has the best interests of its player members refuses to allow for public comment but instead makes decisions behind closed doors.  Caha has  a list of every player and certainly parent's email addresses.  They could have done a survey or asked for parent input. 

So instead of spending a nice Labor Day weekend at home in Orange County (perhaps playing in a meaningless IHE Tournament), my son and I are forced to travel to San Jose to essentially decide the fate of his team before the season has even begun.  And I can tell you from having my son play PW AA, Bantam AA and last season Midget AA, the strength of a team's performance in the 2001 and 2002 birthyear cannot be determined in early September.  For instance, last season's  Midget AA Ducks 01 won the IHE Tournament over Labor Day.  They failed however, to make Playdowns.  By Midget AA, every coach knows every kid, almost every parent knows most other parents.  There are few surprises but what is not known is how well a team performs over the course of the next six months.  Last year's Ducks 2000 were the top team in Midget AA during the season, did they win it?  Nope, Santa Clara came on like gangbusters.  Would Santa Clara have been projected to be the best team in Midget AA back in September and gotten a hall pass?  I doubt it. 

To give six or seven teams a hall pass to Playdowns is not equitable.  In fact in virtually all of my son's AA seasons involving the 00, 01 and 02 birthyears, there were maybe 2 teams that were really strong and 2 teams that were really weak and the rest was a dogfight.  And guess what, it is virtually the same 16 teams playing again this year....nobody wants a 6 team division and quite frankly, no body cares if a team "sucks."  It is after all, those parent's choice to put their team in AA and if they lose every game, so what?  It is their money.

And speaking of cost:  40 youth teams traveling north, 18 kids a team, S1200 in hotel (food, dues, gas, airplane, possibly up to 4 nights in $160 hotels) = $864,000 parent dollars spent for one weekend.   

I find it ironic that CAHA posts the "Road to Nowhere" articles yet talks about increasing competition.  Grow up, this is California...hockey is not a strong athletic sport here as it is too expensive and the season lasts way too long.  The best athletes choose other sports and multiple sports by High School age.  There are about less than 300 kids in any age bracket statewide, that is nothing.  This is not British Columbia where they have 2000 kids in an age group and a "play in" makes sense (so does Flights/Tiers up there of which there are many)

There are no Cali Midget aged 2001s/02s with exceptional Major Jr status, no 2001s making the World Jr Team, no 2001s who will be in the NHL or likely any level of serious college hockey, I could go on and on and this includes AAA kids, despite the dreams of the AAA parents.  If you want to play hockey for a living, more to where they play hockey.  Don't worry about competition at the AA level, CAHA left the 18U alone and they should do the same for 16U.  16U parent's have no illusions and certainly don't need to unnecessarily increase the cost of their kid's joy of ice hockey while they still have a few year's left.   

And finally, my PBR 12 pack is on sale for $8.99 at Albertsons and maybe will be cheaper by Labor Day, the charcoal is maybe $11.00, the hotdogs, i can get two dozen for $5.00...all of which I was looking forward to like every other Labor Day....oh wait, I will be up in San Jose spending a shit ton of money so my kid can play "competitive" hockey...jackasses....

Oh, and then we spend another $1000 to go to San Jose in early October for a Caha weekend?  I could go on...

[Hockey05]

Welcome back Pucklawyer and thanks for your insight.  Most of us no doubt agree.  I hope your son is playing well and glad he's still enjoying the sport.

[trans4761]

Caha experimented on the AA division without any parent input.  To most, the results of the new format were unfavorable.  Last year, the covert 3 question survey on the topic was not publicly disseminated.  This year, once again, a unilateral decision was made to create a new format without parent input.  The parent's pay for youth hockey.  The members of executive competitive "committee" are not publicly known and they make decisions without parent input.  The meeting over the weekend was not publicly announced.  It is a sad state of affairs when an organization who presumably has the best interests of its player members refuses to allow for public comment but instead makes decisions behind closed doors.  Caha has  a list of every player and certainly parent's email addresses.  They could have done a survey or asked for parent input. 

So instead of spending a nice Labor Day weekend at home in Orange County (perhaps playing in a meaningless IHE Tournament), my son and I are forced to travel to San Jose to essentially decide the fate of his team before the season has even begun.  And I can tell you from having my son play PW AA, Bantam AA and last season Midget AA, the strength of a team's performance in the 2001 and 2002 birthyear cannot be determined in early September.  For instance, last season's  Midget AA Ducks 01 won the IHE Tournament over Labor Day.  They failed however, to make Playdowns.  By Midget AA, every coach knows every kid, almost every parent knows most other parents.  There are few surprises but what is not known is how well a team performs over the course of the next six months.  Last year's Ducks 2000 were the top team in Midget AA during the season, did they win it?  Nope, Santa Clara came on like gangbusters.  Would Santa Clara have been projected to be the best team in Midget AA back in September and gotten a hall pass?  I doubt it. 

To give six or seven teams a hall pass to Playdowns is not equitable.  In fact in virtually all of my son's AA seasons involving the 00, 01 and 02 birthyears, there were maybe 2 teams that were really strong and 2 teams that were really weak and the rest was a dogfight.  And guess what, it is virtually the same 16 teams playing again this year....nobody wants a 6 team division and quite frankly, no body cares if a team "sucks."  It is after all, those parent's choice to put their team in AA and if they lose every game, so what?  It is their money.

And speaking of cost:  40 youth teams traveling north, 18 kids a team, S1200 in hotel (food, dues, gas, airplane, possibly up to 4 nights in $160 hotels) = $864,000 parent dollars spent for one weekend.   

I find it ironic that CAHA posts the "Road to Nowhere" articles yet talks about increasing competition.  Grow up, this is California...hockey is not a strong athletic sport here as it is too expensive and the season lasts way too long.  The best athletes choose other sports and multiple sports by High School age.  There are about less than 300 kids in any age bracket statewide, that is nothing.  This is not British Columbia where they have 2000 kids in an age group and a "play in" makes sense (so does Flights/Tiers up there of which there are many)

There are no Cali Midget aged 2001s/02s with exceptional Major Jr status, no 2001s making the World Jr Team, no 2001s who will be in the NHL or likely any level of serious college hockey, I could go on and on and this includes AAA kids, despite the dreams of the AAA parents.  If you want to play hockey for a living, more to where they play hockey.  Don't worry about competition at the AA level, CAHA left the 18U alone and they should do the same for 16U.  16U parent's have no illusions and certainly don't need to unnecessarily increase the cost of their kid's joy of ice hockey while they still have a few year's left.   

And finally, my PBR 12 pack is on sale for $8.99 at Albertsons and maybe will be cheaper by Labor Day, the charcoal is maybe $11.00, the hotdogs, i can get two dozen for $5.00...all of which I was looking forward to like every other Labor Day....oh wait, I will be up in San Jose spending a shit ton of money so my kid can play "competitive" hockey...jackasses....

Oh, and then we spend another $1000 to go to San Jose in early October for a Caha weekend?  I could go on...

What's up PL !!!  Spot on.....


Glad to see you've awaken from your hibernation.

[Nowhearthis]

What if............ no one paid and no one showed up??   Problem solved, money saved.

[Falcons Hockey]

I am so glad my kid decided not to stay and play AA this year....WOOHOO what a joke this league has turned into.

Same book different cover.  CAHA still doesn't get it.......

[Hockey05]

I can see the problem that California has with teams that don't belong in a division insisting on playing in that division.  Whether this will have any positive impact remains to be seen.  Sometimes the cure can be worse than the disease.

I lover the cure VS disease comparison. 


How about CAHA offer teams the option to opt out of the stinking jamboree to play in the lower division and spend the money for more practices?  [size=78%]CAHA could then drop the team if they want anyway based on scrimmages and the [/size][/size][size=78%] teams that attend could maybe play a real hockey game that isn't run time.  [/size]


It is a lose - lose everywhere.  Clubs that have Labor Day tourneys also lose out.  Does anyone really like it? 


I can't see how this expensive weekend with a total cost of nearly 1 million dollars is going to get any better. 

[Dman2]

Calm down and have some dandelion wine.

Caha experimented on the AA division without any parent input.  To most, the results of the new format were unfavorable.  Last year, the covert 3 question survey on the topic was not publicly disseminated.  This year, once again, a unilateral decision was made to create a new format without parent input.  The parent's pay for youth hockey.  The members of executive competitive "committee" are not publicly known and they make decisions without parent input.  The meeting over the weekend was not publicly announced.  It is a sad state of affairs when an organization who presumably has the best interests of its player members refuses to allow for public comment but instead makes decisions behind closed doors.  Caha has  a list of every player and certainly parent's email addresses.  They could have done a survey or asked for parent input. 

So instead of spending a nice Labor Day weekend at home in Orange County (perhaps playing in a meaningless IHE Tournament), my son and I are forced to travel to San Jose to essentially decide the fate of his team before the season has even begun.  And I can tell you from having my son play PW AA, Bantam AA and last season Midget AA, the strength of a team's performance in the 2001 and 2002 birthyear cannot be determined in early September.  For instance, last season's  Midget AA Ducks 01 won the IHE Tournament over Labor Day.  They failed however, to make Playdowns.  By Midget AA, every coach knows every kid, almost every parent knows most other parents.  There are few surprises but what is not known is how well a team performs over the course of the next six months.  Last year's Ducks 2000 were the top team in Midget AA during the season, did they win it?  Nope, Santa Clara came on like gangbusters.  Would Santa Clara have been projected to be the best team in Midget AA back in September and gotten a hall pass?  I doubt it. 

To give six or seven teams a hall pass to Playdowns is not equitable.  In fact in virtually all of my son's AA seasons involving the 00, 01 and 02 birthyears, there were maybe 2 teams that were really strong and 2 teams that were really weak and the rest was a dogfight.  And guess what, it is virtually the same 16 teams playing again this year....nobody wants a 6 team division and quite frankly, no body cares if a team "sucks."  It is after all, those parent's choice to put their team in AA and if they lose every game, so what?  It is their money.

And speaking of cost:  40 youth teams traveling north, 18 kids a team, S1200 in hotel (food, dues, gas, airplane, possibly up to 4 nights in $160 hotels) = $864,000 parent dollars spent for one weekend.   

I find it ironic that CAHA posts the "Road to Nowhere" articles yet talks about increasing competition.  Grow up, this is California...hockey is not a strong athletic sport here as it is too expensive and the season lasts way too long.  The best athletes choose other sports and multiple sports by High School age.  There are about less than 300 kids in any age bracket statewide, that is nothing.  This is not British Columbia where they have 2000 kids in an age group and a "play in" makes sense (so does Flights/Tiers up there of which there are many)

There are no Cali Midget aged 2001s/02s with exceptional Major Jr status, no 2001s making the World Jr Team, no 2001s who will be in the NHL or likely any level of serious college hockey, I could go on and on and this includes AAA kids, despite the dreams of the AAA parents.  If you want to play hockey for a living, more to where they play hockey.  Don't worry about competition at the AA level, CAHA left the 18U alone and they should do the same for 16U.  16U parent's have no illusions and certainly don't need to unnecessarily increase the cost of their kid's joy of ice hockey while they still have a few year's left.   

And finally, my PBR 12 pack is on sale for $8.99 at Albertsons and maybe will be cheaper by Labor Day, the charcoal is maybe $11.00, the hotdogs, i can get two dozen for $5.00...all of which I was looking forward to like every other Labor Day....oh wait, I will be up in San Jose spending a shit ton of money so my kid can play "competitive" hockey...jackasses....

Oh, and then we spend another $1000 to go to San Jose in early October for a Caha weekend?  I could go on...

[pucklawyer]

Outstanding 1st post Dman!  The problem does result from it still needing a third racking so it frustrating as my target date was Labor Day but maybe I can swing by some Norcal Vineyards over that weekend to learn some trade secrets as I will have lots of time after my son plays a few 50 minute runtime games over 3 days!

[Portent]

For some of us who have been part of this forum since the start, isn't this what some people have asked for?  Maybe not the whole flight system grouping thing. But people have been asking for years to have a weekend or two of preseason "seeding games" to see if teams belong. If it isn't one group of parents complaining about why their kid has to play against lower skilled teams that don't belong and wasting a weekend to some far off rink, than it is another group complaining that they have to drive off to a far off rink to play seeding games to make sure they play against teams of similar caliber. I personally like the idea of the seeding games. However I do not like the flight system.
Simple reality;
-People will complain about something regardless
-CAHA does nothing, people will complain
-CAHA does something, people will complain
-younger birth teams are often classified as one of two things; elite because they can play against the "bigger kids" and still win, or this year is a building year and they expect to loose but still need to play teir
-Clubs will always have teams in divisions that "don't belong"
-parents will always pay to be on teams that "don't belong"
-common sense and logic will often loose out when parents, clubs and coaches are faced with the question of dropping down a division after going 0-4 in preseason


I agree with Puck Yeah on his comment "I can see the problem that California has with teams that don't belong in a division insisting on playing in that division.  Whether this will have any positive impact remains to be seen.  Sometimes the cure can be worse than the disease."
Something needed to be changed. I give credit for CAHA trying a preseason seeding system. If they continue with the 50 minute run time concept, than each team should play around 8 games each. This way the clubs, parents and coaches get a better view of how they stack up against the majority of teams in the division. However, I still think it has to be up to the respective teams to drop.