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Author Topic: The CAHA AA Flight system sucks again (2019 Bantam AA Edition)  (Read 101651 times)

PutYourFootOnTheGas

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Re: The CAHA AA Flight system sucks again (2019 Bantam AA Edition)
« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2019, 04:32:17 PM »
Great. Then CAHA should follow their own rules. It's one or the other... and that is what consistently pisses people off. Either allow teams to ice AAA teams as they please or follow the rules and DO NOT allow Jr Sharks to ice AAA teams at PW/Bantam when they NEVER meet minimum requirements.


One or the other.  Pick.


If JackBender thinks a small group of us are shills for CAHA, can we assume his little Johnny got cut from the Jr Sharks as to the reason he seems so butt hurt by them? Now that we seem to have you giving up on the hidden NorCal talent issue, let’s turn to your “main point”. Re read the CAHA rules you highlighted and tell us which ones they are not following? Maybe the one that says they can deny a club if their collective performances were non competitive? Do you know what collective means? Hint......it means more than just how they did against the Ducks and Kings (who have fantastic teams by the way particularly at the younger age groups). It is also the reason I provided SJs record against Tier 1 competition across the country.  They are not setting the world on fire but they are definitely not non competitive.


Fire away JB.

PutYourFootOnTheGas

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Re: The CAHA AA Flight system sucks again (2019 Bantam AA Edition)
« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2019, 04:55:51 PM »
Great. Then CAHA should follow their own rules. It's one or the other... and that is what consistently pisses people off. Either allow teams to ice AAA teams as they please or follow the rules and DO NOT allow Jr Sharks to ice AAA teams at PW/Bantam when they NEVER meet minimum requirements.


One or the other.  Pick.


If JackBender thinks a small group of us are shills for CAHA, can we assume his little Johnny got cut from the Jr Sharks as to the reason he seems so butt hurt by them? Now that we seem to have you giving up on the hidden NorCal talent issue, let’s turn to your “main point”. Re read the CAHA rules you highlighted and tell us which ones they are not following? Maybe the one that says they can deny a club if their collective performances were non competitive? Do you know what collective means? Hint......it means more than just how they did against the Ducks and Kings (who have fantastic teams by the way particularly at the younger age groups). It is also the reason I provided SJs record against Tier 1 competition across the country.  They are not setting the world on fire but they are definitely not non competitive.


Fire away JB.


Sorry.....my argument was not complete. Collective includes all age groups not just the younger age groups which is why I noted 02 and 03 groups.

lcadad

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Re: The CAHA AA Flight system sucks again (2019 Bantam AA Edition)
« Reply #32 on: February 05, 2019, 05:01:34 PM »
Didn't take long for the "self fulfilling prophecy of failure - Cali has no talent" argument to surface.   Yes I guess that Boston, NJ, Minnesota and Canada have special "AAA" juice, or maybe they just have more opportunity for kids to play and develop at whatever rate they are capable.

I don't know what fantasy world that you live in where there is a long line of people battling to get onto the LA AAA teams with the also rans dropping down to AA.  That doesn't exist.  There's at least several teams worth of kids playing AA with the talent and physical ability to compete with kids playing AAA who will never be anywhere near a AAA tryout.  I took my kid to the pre-tryout skate and scrimmage 2 days prior to the tryouts for a AAA team a year or so ago, and there were maybe 4 kids on the ice who weren't already on the team from the year prior.  Everyone knows that the teams are 95% picked in the spring and the main group who is actively trying to challenge up is already playing at the club on a AA team.
 
  For plenty of people, they don't live anywhere near the AAA teams.  For many others the cost and extensive travel isn't feasible.  And I'm sure there are plenty who have considered whether it was a good investment or beneficial to their overall development for their kid to make a AAA club only to end up on the 4th line.   When your league season is 6 games in total, it might come as a surprise to you that a lot of people aren't rushing to sign up for that.

If there was only 1 or 2 players per AA team that are capable of playing AAA, even with that small number you could field 1 or 2 additional AAA teams just in Socal.  Norcal's problems are different and shouldn't be the tail that wags the dog in any case. 

Saints '05, whatever might happen with them, are an example of how a team in a particular area can coalesce over time.  Often it's a combination of team management, stability over a period of 2+ seasons, committed parents and coaching.   If all those things are in place, a AAA team could emerge from any number of geographic areas or clubs, but the franchise system discourages that.  Things ebb and flow in youth hockey as coaches and programs come and go.

Every AAA team is not going to be the Chicago Mission or Little Caesars, and they don't have to be.   Competition and opportunity raises the level of play over time.



 

lcadad

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Re: The CAHA AA Flight system sucks again (2019 Bantam AA Edition)
« Reply #33 on: February 05, 2019, 05:02:41 PM »
Great. Then CAHA should follow their own rules. It's one or the other... and that is what consistently pisses people off. Either allow teams to ice AAA teams as they please or follow the rules and DO NOT allow Jr Sharks to ice AAA teams at PW/Bantam when they NEVER meet minimum requirements.

One or the other.  Pick.


This ^^^^^

Strawman

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Re: The CAHA AA Flight system sucks again (2019 Bantam AA Edition)
« Reply #34 on: February 05, 2019, 05:27:11 PM »
I’m the last person to defend either CAHA or the Sharks, but how is it that people think they fail to comply with CAHA’s minimum requirements for having AAA teams?

The rule quoted above provides:

b. Member Associations fielding Tier I teams shall maintain a minimum of two (2) teams at the Tier II level in the current and previous season.


Last I checked, the Sharks do have at least two AA teams. Not necessarily at each age level, but that isn’t what the rule requires.

rmackintosh

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Re: The CAHA AA Flight system sucks again (2019 Bantam AA Edition)
« Reply #35 on: February 05, 2019, 05:29:50 PM »
Great. Then CAHA should follow their own rules. It's one or the other... and that is what consistently pisses people off. Either allow teams to ice AAA teams as they please or follow the rules and DO NOT allow Jr Sharks to ice AAA teams at PW/Bantam when they NEVER meet minimum requirements.


One or the other.  Pick.
AAA


First of all the idea that by removing tha CAHA rules on AAA would allow for more QUALITY AAA teams is just wrong...there is TRUELY not enough talent out there to support it...unless you are not bothered by weak AA or worse level teams slogging around on the ice. Which may be the case here...


Secondly, if the Sharks don’t qualify for AAA, then are you suggesting that all NorCal AAA capable kids just quit or leave? Maybe travel south and take away spots from YOUR kids? Good plan...

JackBender

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Re: The CAHA AA Flight system sucks again (2019 Bantam AA Edition)
« Reply #36 on: February 05, 2019, 05:43:35 PM »
PutYourFootOnTheGas aka pro-CAHA plant... we've moved on from the subjective definition of "competitive."

Per the bylaws, to have a PW 07AAA team or PW 06AAA team, the Jr Sharks have to have two (2) PW AA teams.  They DO NOT meet this requirement.  They have one (1). That is a violation of the bylaws:   



8.3 Member Associations fielding Tier I teams shall maintain a minimum of two (2) teams at their Tier II level in the current and previous seasons.

The same is true at the Bantam level. Again, either allow organizations to do as they please or enforce the bylaws.

So, again, which is it?     

« Last Edit: February 05, 2019, 05:48:31 PM by JackBender »
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Hamacher Checking Camp

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Re: The CAHA AA Flight system sucks again (2019 Bantam AA Edition)
« Reply #37 on: February 05, 2019, 05:59:52 PM »
I like and appreciate all the comments here.


Instead of rules, rules, and rules, the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, nth question should be "is this good for players and developing players?"  That is all that matters. 


A few things to ponder:
- Individual players are recruited and advance.  Not teams.  Scouts and next level coaches don't care about the team national standing.  Whenever I do contract scouting or write reports for NZ or for a team, I have NEVER included the score of the game, who won, or what the MHR ranking was for the teams.  It is simply focused on individual players.
- Each AAA team can ONLY have 1 starting goalie, 1 top line, 1 primary PP, 1 primary PK, 1 top D-pair, etc.  So the comment to me this past summer from a group of NCAA D1 coaches was "if everyone knows this, why is California going the opposite direction?  We would like to see them expand to double or triple the number of AAA teams so that more players get developed for the next level and eventually for us at the D1 level."  - that should be the ONLY type of input people need to be convinced of how to develop more players.
- We are so focused on everything and anything EXCEPT developing more great individual players.  Flights and letters and rules and everything else is a moot point unless you get kids playing multiple sports and get them more than two multi-team shared practices per week and 30 games per season.


Keep expressing opinions and pursuing the right environment and culture.  I will have more comments posted on this topic on my page later this week.  Important stuff.  I love the topic and sincerely appreciate it.




« Last Edit: February 05, 2019, 06:07:38 PM by Hamacher Checking Camp »

PutYourFootOnTheGas

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Re: The CAHA AA Flight system sucks again (2019 Bantam AA Edition)
« Reply #38 on: February 05, 2019, 06:36:08 PM »
PutYourFootOnTheGas aka pro-CAHA plant... we've moved on from the subjective definition of "competitive."

Per the bylaws, to have a PW 07AAA team or PW 06AAA team, the Jr Sharks have to have two (2) PW AA teams.  They DO NOT meet this requirement.  They have one (1). That is a violation of the bylaws:   



8.3 Member Associations fielding Tier I teams shall maintain a minimum of two (2) teams at their Tier II level in the current and previous seasons.

The same is true at the Bantam level. Again, either allow organizations to do as they please or enforce the bylaws.

So, again, which is it?     


Is it “two (2) teams at the Tier II level....” OR “[size=78%]two (2) teams at their Tier II Level....” ??? I honestly don’t know. It doesn’t have to be at the particular age group....just any (2) Tier II teams. [/size]


Mcp04

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Re: The CAHA AA Flight system sucks again (2019 Bantam AA Edition)
« Reply #39 on: February 05, 2019, 06:48:07 PM »
Great and noble vision.  I like what you are saying.  When you look at the Boston and Detroit area they have close to 10 AAA programs each.  Most are in he 20-30 ranking with 1-2 top 10 teams.  That’s the ideal state.  California is the most populated state in the country and we can’t put together more than 3 AAA clubs.  The sport is not part of the culture. 


A major issue that tempers the growth in California is rink ownership.  States where hockey is more expansive simply have more affordable access to ice.  The lack of municipality owned rinks makes it too expensive and perverts the mission.  City owned rinks offer stick times for $6-8 not $20. 



The flaw is that the governing body is only interested in expanding the sport if means their club benefits.


Teams with only one highly competitive line can’t compete nationally which means lower rankings.  Jobs and incomes are at stake when programs like the Ducks and Kings don’t do well on the national stage.  Therefore the big clubs fight over the limited talent and monopolize it. 



JackBender

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Re: The CAHA AA Flight system sucks again (2019 Bantam AA Edition)
« Reply #40 on: February 05, 2019, 07:06:30 PM »
8.3 Member Associations fielding Tier I teams shall maintain a minimum of two (2) teams at their Tier II level in the current and previous seasons.

This is the bylaw. Page 25 of the Guidebook. The key words are "Tier I teams shall maintain a minimum of two (2) teams at THEIR Tier II level."

If you're trying to interpret it the other way, with a club only needing two (2) Tier II teams at ANY level... that would make just about EVERY CAHA club eligible for AAA.  CAHA clubs with two AA teams include: Jr Ducks, Jr Kings, Wave, GSE, Blackhawks, Jr Sharks, OCHC, Jr Reign, Jr Gulls, Empire, Maple Leafs, Saints, and Jr Ice Dogs.

So, clearly, that is not correct.

It is as it is written... so should CAHA allow clubs to do as they like or should CAHA enforce their own bylaws?

To have it both ways is hypocritical.  It's either one or the other.  So what is it?
« Last Edit: February 05, 2019, 07:08:45 PM by JackBender »
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PutYourFootOnTheGas

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Re: The CAHA AA Flight system sucks again (2019 Bantam AA Edition)
« Reply #41 on: February 05, 2019, 08:58:33 PM »
8.3 Member Associations fielding Tier I teams shall maintain a minimum of two (2) teams at their Tier II level in the current and previous seasons.

This is the bylaw. Page 25 of the Guidebook. The key words are "Tier I teams shall maintain a minimum of two (2) teams at THEIR Tier II level."

If you're trying to interpret it the other way, with a club only needing two (2) Tier II teams at ANY level... that would make just about EVERY CAHA club eligible for AAA.  CAHA clubs with two AA teams include: Jr Ducks, Jr Kings, Wave, GSE, Blackhawks, Jr Sharks, OCHC, Jr Reign, Jr Gulls, Empire, Maple Leafs, Saints, and Jr Ice Dogs.

So, clearly, that is not correct.

It is as it is written... so should CAHA allow clubs to do as they like or should CAHA enforce their own bylaws?

To have it both ways is hypocritical.  It's either one or the other.  So what is it?


JackBender, you've misquoted the CAHA Guide Book. It is "the" Tier II level NOT "their" Tier II level. I've copied and pasted below.

Member Associations fielding Tier I teams shall maintain a minimum of two (2) teams at the Tier II level in the current and previous season.

That means it is (2) Tier II teams at any level. I assume the rationale is you can't just pop up out of no where and decide to have a AAA team. There should be a history of fielding tier II level teams before you step up to the big leagues. I also assume the same goes for fielding tier II teams, you need to show history of fielding A level teams. Walk before you can run concept. Not a terrible idea as I've heard of some horror stories about the old Anaheim Wildcats program which this may have been directed at.

Like it or not, the Sharks ARE following the rules. That also means any of the clubs you've noted above, can have a AAA team if they want. They just need to submit an application.

Strawman

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Re: The CAHA AA Flight system sucks again (2019 Bantam AA Edition)
« Reply #42 on: February 05, 2019, 08:58:48 PM »
PutYourFootOnTheGas aka pro-CAHA plant... we've moved on from the subjective definition of "competitive."

Per the bylaws, to have a PW 07AAA team or PW 06AAA team, the Jr Sharks have to have two (2) PW AA teams.  They DO NOT meet this requirement.  They have one (1). That is a violation of the bylaws:   



8.3 Member Associations fielding Tier I teams shall maintain a minimum of two (2) teams at their Tier II level in the current and previous seasons.

The same is true at the Bantam level. Again, either allow organizations to do as they please or enforce the bylaws.

So, again, which is it?     


I repeat my question. Where in this rule does it say a club must have two AA teams at the PeeWee level to have a AAA team at the PeeWee level?  It doesn’t. It just says the club must have st least two AA teams to have any AAA teams. You can like the rule or hate it, but it simply doesn’t say what you want it to say.

PutYourFootOnTheGas

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Re: The CAHA AA Flight system sucks again (2019 Bantam AA Edition)
« Reply #43 on: February 05, 2019, 09:16:13 PM »
PutYourFootOnTheGas aka pro-CAHA plant... we've moved on from the subjective definition of "competitive."

Per the bylaws, to have a PW 07AAA team or PW 06AAA team, the Jr Sharks have to have two (2) PW AA teams.  They DO NOT meet this requirement.  They have one (1). That is a violation of the bylaws:   



8.3 Member Associations fielding Tier I teams shall maintain a minimum of two (2) teams at their Tier II level in the current and previous seasons.

The same is true at the Bantam level. Again, either allow organizations to do as they please or enforce the bylaws.

So, again, which is it?     


I repeat my question. Where in this rule does it say a club must have two AA teams at the PeeWee level to have a AAA team at the PeeWee level?  It doesn’t. It just says the club must have st least two AA teams to have any AAA teams. You can like the rule or hate it, but it simply doesn’t say what you want it to say.


I agree with you Strawman. JackBender is misinterpreting the CAHA rules. I think both of his arguments have unraveled today.

JackBender

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Re: The CAHA AA Flight system sucks again (2019 Bantam AA Edition)
« Reply #44 on: February 05, 2019, 10:26:51 PM »
Oh my god. You two are such morons. Look at the previous posts. How many times does it have to be spelled out for you?  You two are such stooges.  Such shills.  YOU are the reason CAHA is such an UTTER CLOWN SHOW.   

USE YOUR EYES.  USE YOUR BRAINS. 

CAHA Guidbook. Page 29. Section 8.3.

8.3 Member Associations fielding Tier I teams shall maintain a minimum of two (2) teams at their Tier II level in the current and previous seasons.

The word is THEIR.  THEIR.  The word is POSSESSIVETHAT CONNECTS THEM   

If you idiots can't interpret this sentence as it is written, or understand the meaning of the words, then we have nothing to talk about.  You can't interpret the the simplest of sentences.  You think four teams at four levels with a combined 1-23 record in the league is competitive.  You're idiots.  Your President is an idiot. And your Board of Dunderheads are idiots.

Enjoy the playoffs as all your NorCal teams get annihilated... especially the AAA Jr Shark Dumpster Fires.


Oh, and the fact that both you dopes completely ignore the advice and thoughts of Brad Hamacher, a real hockey mind and influence on the kids, is telling.  You're CAHA shills.  Total frauds.  Nothing more.   
« Last Edit: February 05, 2019, 10:31:11 PM by JackBender »
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