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Author Topic: The CAHA AA Flight system sucks again (2019 Bantam AA Edition)  (Read 101917 times)

Strawman

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Re: The CAHA AA Flight system sucks again (2019 Bantam AA Edition)
« Reply #45 on: February 05, 2019, 11:18:35 PM »
Oh my god. You two are such morons. Look at the previous posts. How many times does it have to be spelled out for you?  You two are such stooges.  Such shills.  YOU are the reason CAHA is such an UTTER CLOWN SHOW.   

USE YOUR EYES.  USE YOUR BRAINS. 

CAHA Guidbook. Page 29. Section 8.3.

8.3 Member Associations fielding Tier I teams shall maintain a minimum of two (2) teams at their Tier II level in the current and previous seasons.

The word is THEIR.  THEIR.  The word is POSSESSIVETHAT CONNECTS THEM   

If you idiots can't interpret this sentence as it is written, or understand the meaning of the words, then we have nothing to talk about.  You can't interpret the the simplest of sentences.  You think four teams at four levels with a combined 1-23 record in the league is competitive.  You're idiots.  Your President is an idiot. And your Board of Dunderheads are idiots.

Enjoy the playoffs as all your NorCal teams get annihilated... especially the AAA Jr Shark Dumpster Fires.


Oh, and the fact that both you dopes completely ignore the advice and thoughts of Brad Hamacher, a real hockey mind and influence on the kids, is telling.  You're CAHA shills.  Total frauds.  Nothing more.   


Time to take a break from the bottle, Bender.

The antecedent of "their" in this sentence is "Member Associations," not "Tier I teams."  It would make no sense for it to be the latter given that Tier I teams are birth-year teams, which are divided into major and minor years, while Tier II teams are not.

And no, I'm not from NorCal, I don't think the Sharks are particularly competitive, I'm not a big fan of CAHA.  I also think Brad Hamacher is a great.  English is however my first language.


« Last Edit: February 05, 2019, 11:35:23 PM by Strawman »

Hockey05

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Re: The CAHA AA Flight system sucks again (2019 Bantam AA Edition)
« Reply #46 on: February 06, 2019, 12:00:29 AM »
There used to be seven AAA teams in some divisions in this state.  Next year the most California are slated to have is four at 18U and 13U.  In all other categories there are only three AAA teams. 

lcadad

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Re: The CAHA AA Flight system sucks again (2019 Bantam AA Edition)
« Reply #47 on: February 06, 2019, 12:07:52 AM »
Quote from: Mcp04 link=topic=4385.msg49137#msg49137

Teams with only one highly competitive line can’t compete nationally which means lower rankings.  Jobs and incomes are at stake when programs like the Ducks and Kings don’t do well on the national stage.  Therefore the big clubs fight over the limited talent and monopolize it.

Again that's an opinion, and lore, and it's just blatantly not true.  All the best players do not flock to the 3 AAA teams and there is no waiting line, outside of the clubs themselves.

A well known coach comes in and flat out tells you that other programs and D1 coaches are saying WTF is wrong with CAHA, but you all know better.   
« Last Edit: February 06, 2019, 12:09:08 AM by lcadad »

lcadad

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Re: The CAHA AA Flight system sucks again (2019 Bantam AA Edition)
« Reply #48 on: February 06, 2019, 12:33:08 AM »
Hey JackBender,

Just to be clear, the rules as I understand them is that a club requires two Tier2 teams in addition to any AAA teams they might have.  It doesn't matter the age group.  This is in fact the rule that did in the Titans long running AAA team. 

With that said, your prior point in regards to the hypocrisy of the CAHA rules in regards to the Sharks lack of competitive credibility is right on.

I am not by any means a Shark hater, nor would I demand that the Sharks be stripped of their AAA teams.   I just don't think the franchise rules serve california hockey in general.  The defense of the sharks seems to be that they are not that bad nationally and perhaps that's fair, but in their home state they are dead last year after year, often without being able to win a single game in their home league.   They have no defense to offer, because there is none.  They had a monopoly, and that monopoly didn't produce teams that can beat either of the other teams, save for once in a blue moon.   Individually, it's clear the program produces some very capable players that go on to higher levels of hockey.  Taking away their monopoly shouldn't have any effect on the program, and if it does, then that is probably some healthy and much needed disinfection that will either force them to up their game, or force them to retract. 

Also, and BTW, how hilarious that programs had to submit their APPLICATIONS for AAA teams when the current season isn't even over yet.   And you wonder why few coaches and organizations want to go to the trouble.  Also just have to say -- while I wish the Icedogs much luck with their '06 AAA foray, once you take the nucleus of their PW groups and form a AAA team, how are they going to meet the "2 Tier 2 team" requirement.    Again, while it shouldn't matter a bit in regards to the AAA team, the reality is that it still does, and they could pull the rug out from under the team next year. 

lcadad

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Re: The CAHA AA Flight system sucks again (2019 Bantam AA Edition)
« Reply #49 on: February 06, 2019, 12:50:39 AM »
There used to be seven AAA teams in some divisions in this state.  Next year the most California are slated to have is four at 18U and 13U.  In all other categories there are only three AAA teams.

 It's also funny that Flighting was apparently tried years ago and was abandoned.  Apparently there is absolutely no institutional knowledge passed down in CAHA.  Maybe at the next CAHA board meeting someone from the Sharks organization will discover that you can make sticks out of wood, and next season all Flight2 teams will be mandated to use them as part of CAHA's renewable energy initiative.

JackBender

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Re: The CAHA AA Flight system sucks again (2019 Bantam AA Edition)
« Reply #50 on: February 06, 2019, 06:20:55 AM »
Ugh. Words are hard.

Tier I team is the antecedent, and the following is “maintain a minimum of two (2) teams at their Tier II level.”  Tier II is the possessive of the Tier I team. The “level” is the Tier I level. PW, Bantam, Midget, etc.

Regardless... these rules (and there are more than just this) were written several years ago to cripple small clubs and consolidate power. Wave were targeted. Heat were targeted. And Wildcats were targeted (perhaps rightly so).

That particular rule was used to reject many, many applications... until organizations just gave up or coaches moved somewhere else... but it was used arbitrarily. When it was convenient.

Just as the “competitive” rule was used. Arbitrarily.

The Jr Sharks should be able to do as they please. As should other teams. But CAHA has an agenda. They have conflicts of interest. There is no transparent. No consistency. They don’t follow their own rules. They make up new rules on the fly. They bully programs. Suppress others. Target specific people. And that is what pisses people off.

This thug-like behavior won’t change with the current group and their skewed philosophies. It’s a shame. And the AAA or Flighting methods are just two of many examples to highlight this.


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PutYourFootOnTheGas

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Re: The CAHA AA Flight system sucks again (2019 Bantam AA Edition)
« Reply #51 on: February 06, 2019, 07:41:48 AM »
Ugh. Words are hard.

Tier I team is the antecedent, and the following is “maintain a minimum of two (2) teams at their Tier II level.”  Tier II is the possessive of the Tier I team. The “level” is the Tier I level. PW, Bantam, Midget, etc.

Regardless... these rules (and there are more than just this) were written several years ago to cripple small clubs and consolidate power. Wave were targeted. Heat were targeted. And Wildcats were targeted (perhaps rightly so).

That particular rule was used to reject many, many applications... until organizations just gave up or coaches moved somewhere else... but it was used arbitrarily. When it was convenient.

Just as the “competitive” rule was used. Arbitrarily.

The Jr Sharks should be able to do as they please. As should other teams. But CAHA has an agenda. They have conflicts of interest. There is no transparent. No consistency. They don’t follow their own rules. They make up new rules on the fly. They bully programs. Suppress others. Target specific people. And that is what pisses people off.

This thug-like behavior won’t change with the current group and their skewed philosophies. It’s a shame. And the AAA or Flighting methods are just two of many examples to highlight this.


LOL. Time to morph the argument again JackBender? Not the sharpest tool, eh? It’s easy to see when Mr. Wordsmith starts with the.......”well, the main point is” or “regardless”.


Here is the truth. Youth hockey in California has NEVER been more healthy. There are more kids playing at all levels and more competitive teams fielded than EVER before. I’ve never said CAHA or the Sharks are perfect. Far from it but it’s ridiculous all the whining and complaining that happens on these boards. Enjoy the journey as the road for all of these kids leads to beer league (which is awesome by the way).


I don’t know who the coach is that came on but just because he provides an opinion or shares a conversation also doesn’t mean that the content is an absolute truth. Of course there is only 1 goalie, 1 PP group, 1 PK group, 1 set of top D. How often do you think they are out there in a 14 to 0 game? You want / need competitive games. 3-2, 1-0 not 10-0 or 13-2. That’s what the flight system tried to address. That’s why they make it hard for organizations to field AAA teams. It’s not easy to pull off.


I really do appreciate the back and forth. Certainly has added to board traffic which seems way down this year.

Hockey05

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Re: The CAHA AA Flight system sucks again (2019 Bantam AA Edition)
« Reply #52 on: February 06, 2019, 08:45:00 AM »


LOL. Time to morph the argument again JackBender? Not the sharpest tool, eh? It’s easy to see when Mr. Wordsmith starts with the.......”well, the main point is” or “regardless”.


Here is the truth. Youth hockey in California has NEVER been more healthy. There are more kids playing at all levels and more competitive teams fielded than EVER before. I’ve never said CAHA or the Sharks are perfect. Far from it but it’s ridiculous all the whining and complaining that happens on these boards. Enjoy the journey as the road for all of these kids leads to beer league (which is awesome by the way).


I don’t know who the coach is that came on but just because he provides an opinion or shares a conversation also doesn’t mean that the content is an absolute truth. Of course there is only 1 goalie, 1 PP group, 1 PK group, 1 set of top D. How often do you think they are out there in a 14 to 0 game? You want / need competitive games. 3-2, 1-0 not 10-0 or 13-2. That’s what the flight system tried to address. That’s why they make it hard for organizations to field AAA teams. It’s not easy to pull off.


I really do appreciate the back and forth. Certainly has added to board traffic which seems way down this year.


It isn't healthy when you are fielding only 3 AAA teams at almost every age group for the number of players in the state. 

Hockey05

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Re: The CAHA AA Flight system sucks again (2019 Bantam AA Edition)
« Reply #53 on: February 06, 2019, 08:50:22 AM »
I really think a lawyer needs to take a look to see if legal action can be taken to move this in the right direction. 


Who is the USA Hockey representative for California? 




Avcadet

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Re: The CAHA AA Flight system sucks again (2019 Bantam AA Edition)
« Reply #54 on: February 06, 2019, 10:20:39 AM »
Ugh. Words are hard.

Tier I team is the antecedent, and the following is “maintain a minimum of two (2) teams at their Tier II level.”  Tier II is the possessive of the Tier I team. The “level” is the Tier I level. PW, Bantam, Midget, etc.

Regardless... these rules (and there are more than just this) were written several years ago to cripple small clubs and consolidate power. Wave were targeted. Heat were targeted. And Wildcats were targeted (perhaps rightly so).

That particular rule was used to reject many, many applications... until organizations just gave up or coaches moved somewhere else... but it was used arbitrarily. When it was convenient.

Just as the “competitive” rule was used. Arbitrarily.

The Jr Sharks should be able to do as they please. As should other teams. But CAHA has an agenda. They have conflicts of interest. There is no transparent. No consistency. They don’t follow their own rules. They make up new rules on the fly. They bully programs. Suppress others. Target specific people. And that is what pisses people off.

This thug-like behavior won’t change with the current group and their skewed philosophies. It’s a shame. And the AAA or Flighting methods are just two of many examples to highlight this.


LOL. Time to morph the argument again JackBender? Not the sharpest tool, eh? It’s easy to see when Mr. Wordsmith starts with the.......”well, the main point is” or “regardless”.


Here is the truth. Youth hockey in California has NEVER been more healthy. There are more kids playing at all levels and more competitive teams fielded than EVER before. I’ve never said CAHA or the Sharks are perfect. Far from it but it’s ridiculous all the whining and complaining that happens on these boards. Enjoy the journey as the road for all of these kids leads to beer league (which is awesome by the way).


I don’t know who the coach is that came on but just because he provides an opinion or shares a conversation also doesn’t mean that the content is an absolute truth. Of course there is only 1 goalie, 1 PP group, 1 PK group, 1 set of top D. How often do you think they are out there in a 14 to 0 game? You want / need competitive games. 3-2, 1-0 not 10-0 or 13-2. That’s what the flight system tried to address. That’s why they make it hard for organizations to field AAA teams. It’s not easy to pull off.


I really do appreciate the back and forth. Certainly has added to board traffic which seems way down this year.
I know the coach so my suggestion to you is to listen to him and not discount his opinion. 

Strawman

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Re: The CAHA AA Flight system sucks again (2019 Bantam AA Edition)
« Reply #55 on: February 06, 2019, 10:31:08 AM »
Ugh. Words are hard.

Tier I team is the antecedent, and the following is “maintain a minimum of two (2) teams at their Tier II level.”  Tier II is the possessive of the Tier I team. The “level” is the Tier I level. PW, Bantam, Midget, etc.

Regardless... these rules (and there are more than just this) were written several years ago to cripple small clubs and consolidate power. Wave were targeted. Heat were targeted. And Wildcats were targeted (perhaps rightly so).

That particular rule was used to reject many, many applications... until organizations just gave up or coaches moved somewhere else... but it was used arbitrarily. When it was convenient.

Just as the “competitive” rule was used. Arbitrarily.

The Jr Sharks should be able to do as they please. As should other teams. But CAHA has an agenda. They have conflicts of interest. There is no transparent. No consistency. They don’t follow their own rules. They make up new rules on the fly. They bully programs. Suppress others. Target specific people. And that is what pisses people off.

This thug-like behavior won’t change with the current group and their skewed philosophies. It’s a shame. And the AAA or Flighting methods are just two of many examples to highlight this.


Specifically which clubs have been denied AAA programs due to this rule?  I think the Titans might have run afoul of it, but anybody else?  GSE was offered AAA status last year but declined due to lack of interest among enough families. Gulls program imploded due to lack of depth, competitiveness  and other issues. I’ve heard the Wave declined to apply for AAA status a couple of years ago, again due to lack of interest. The rule itself doesn’t disqualify many clubs, it just requires them to be developing at least a tiny bit of tier-level talent of their own. That’s not to deny that there are lots of other issues and challenges with AAA hockey in California, which there are.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2019, 12:55:13 PM by Strawman »

PutYourFootOnTheGas

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Re: The CAHA AA Flight system sucks again (2019 Bantam AA Edition)
« Reply #56 on: February 06, 2019, 10:32:07 AM »
Ugh. Words are hard.

Tier I team is the antecedent, and the following is “maintain a minimum of two (2) teams at their Tier II level.”  Tier II is the possessive of the Tier I team. The “level” is the Tier I level. PW, Bantam, Midget, etc.

Regardless... these rules (and there are more than just this) were written several years ago to cripple small clubs and consolidate power. Wave were targeted. Heat were targeted. And Wildcats were targeted (perhaps rightly so).

That particular rule was used to reject many, many applications... until organizations just gave up or coaches moved somewhere else... but it was used arbitrarily. When it was convenient.

Just as the “competitive” rule was used. Arbitrarily.

The Jr Sharks should be able to do as they please. As should other teams. But CAHA has an agenda. They have conflicts of interest. There is no transparent. No consistency. They don’t follow their own rules. They make up new rules on the fly. They bully programs. Suppress others. Target specific people. And that is what pisses people off.

This thug-like behavior won’t change with the current group and their skewed philosophies. It’s a shame. And the AAA or Flighting methods are just two of many examples to highlight this.


LOL. Time to morph the argument again JackBender? Not the sharpest tool, eh? It’s easy to see when Mr. Wordsmith starts with the.......”well, the main point is” or “regardless”.


Here is the truth. Youth hockey in California has NEVER been more healthy. There are more kids playing at all levels and more competitive teams fielded than EVER before. I’ve never said CAHA or the Sharks are perfect. Far from it but it’s ridiculous all the whining and complaining that happens on these boards. Enjoy the journey as the road for all of these kids leads to beer league (which is awesome by the way).


I don’t know who the coach is that came on but just because he provides an opinion or shares a conversation also doesn’t mean that the content is an absolute truth. Of course there is only 1 goalie, 1 PP group, 1 PK group, 1 set of top D. How often do you think they are out there in a 14 to 0 game? You want / need competitive games. 3-2, 1-0 not 10-0 or 13-2. That’s what the flight system tried to address. That’s why they make it hard for organizations to field AAA teams. It’s not easy to pull off.


I really do appreciate the back and forth. Certainly has added to board traffic which seems way down this year.
I know the coach so my suggestion to you is to listen to him and not discount his opinion.


Definitely not discounting the opinion. Just trying to make the point that it’s an opinion. Many ways to skin a cat as the saying goes. Many ways to have success in hockey. I know the coach has a website. I’ll take a look for sure.

JackBender

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Re: The CAHA AA Flight system sucks again (2019 Bantam AA Edition)
« Reply #57 on: February 06, 2019, 12:23:59 PM »
Right. More kids in California are playing hockey now than ever. And that’s somehow connected to CAHA. Because of the wonderful job CAHA has done expanding, nurturing and promoting the game. Always putting the kids first. Serving all the clubs, big or small. Really PUSHING the game statewide for everyone.

Way to go, CAHA. Way to go.

I’m sure it has nothing to do with the NHL initiative to expand the game. The visibility of the game on TV and streaming services. The statewide investments made by the Ducks/Kings to build rinks. Refurbish rinks. Start early development programs like the Lil Ducks and Lil Kings. I’m sure it has NOTHING to do with that.

It’s CAHA. It’s definitely CAHA. They’re the ones. Thanks for the sales video, CAHA shill.

Oh, and the argument is the same. It has always been the same. Clearly laid out. Told several different ways.

Enjoy the playoffs... and pray USA Hockey doesn’t show up in Clovis for an audit.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2019, 02:01:29 PM by JackBender »
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Re: The CAHA AA Flight system sucks again (2019 Bantam AA Edition)
« Reply #58 on: February 06, 2019, 01:56:52 PM »
Here is the truth. Youth hockey in California has NEVER been more healthy. There are more kids playing at all levels and more competitive teams fielded than EVER before.

disagree
there are fewer tier teams now than 5-6 years ago. look it up
160+ tier-caliber kids are playing out of state this season. that is NOT healthy
only one california team has advanced to playoffs at nationals last five years (lost in quarters).

positive things: new facilities, girls numbers up, adhsl.  caha has nothing to do with those. squirt and pw numbers also are healthy, but will be interesting to watch trend now that kings stink instead of winning cups.

imho caha needs to prioritize expanding opportunities for kids and providing compelling reasons to stay rather than leave state in bantam/midget years.  cheers
« Last Edit: February 07, 2019, 12:49:34 PM by Knuckle Puck »

lcadad

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Re: The CAHA AA Flight system sucks again (2019 Bantam AA Edition)
« Reply #59 on: February 06, 2019, 07:43:07 PM »
Quote
Here is the truth. Youth hockey in California has NEVER been more healthy. There are more kids playing at all levels and more competitive teams fielded than EVER before. I’ve never said CAHA or the Sharks are perfect. Far from it but it’s ridiculous all the whining and complaining that happens on these boards. Enjoy the journey as the road for all of these kids leads to beer league (which is awesome by the way).

ALL hockey leads to Beer league if you play the game long enough.  For some people the Beer league includes ex-NHL and former D1, Jr. and euro, swedish and finnish pros.  Meaningless defeatist slogan truth be told.  There is nothing wrong with kids having a dream, and goals that might exceed their grasp when all is said and done.  And yet there are kids who grew up playing youth hockey in Cali who have been in the NHL recently, will eventually be in the NHL, or are in the NHL currently.  I'm not going to list them, and it's also besides the point.  Many kids play AAA in states around the country, and California is the only state I know of that artificially restricts and depresses the number of teams.  The ratio of AAA players to total players is far below that of the more established hockey leagues and systems and the guidelines set out by USA Hockey.  Once again, CAHA is run by people who think they know something that nobody else around the country does.

Quote
I don’t know who the coach is that came on but just because he provides an opinion or shares a conversation also doesn’t mean that the content is an absolute truth. Of course there is only 1 goalie, 1 PP group, 1 PK group, 1 set of top D. How often do you think they are out there in a 14 to 0 game?

If you actually bothered to read what was written, the coach related what D1 & D3 college coaches are saying.

Quote
You want / need competitive games. 3-2, 1-0 not 10-0 or 13-2. That’s what the flight system tried to address. That’s why they make it hard for organizations to field AAA teams. It’s not easy to pull off.

It's a fantasy that people with no apparent experience talk about.  The wonderful magical world of complete parity.  When you look at just about any division anywhere with 6-8 teams or more, you're going to find that someone comes in first and someone comes in last, and more often than not there's a median point where goal differential is positive vs. negative. 

Before the institution of Tier2 Flighting, there were teams that were pushed down.  The mechanics already existed, and if anything CAHA has been less successful in negotiating with those teams since the Flighting began.  And of course there are the teams that wanted to drop and were forced not to....

The issue is that CAHA's tier2 evaluation has missed the mark for 2 out of 2 years now, as well as the fact that Tier2/Flight2 bears no resemblance to Tier2 competition throughout the rest of the country and is the kludgiest and worst implemented ruleset that exists in youth hockey.

As I also stated clearly there is a simple improvement if people insist, and that is to transition to Tier2 Birthyear divisions, which in general predict the relative level of competition in Tier2 year over year at both Peewee and Bantam.    We can use WW as an example, even though WW is no different than most Tier2 teams in amount of flux the team experiences:

-Won state championship with primarily PW Major team
-Allocated to Flight2 as First year Bantams
-Top half of Flight1 Bantams with mostly '04 team

You could look at the strong teams in PWAA as well, and see that the majority of the top teams are primarily '06

There will always be hybrid teams that have a foot in each camp, but it should come as a surprise to noone that the bottom Bantam AA Flight2 teams are primarily minor year with a few '04's and that the primarily '04 teams like the Saints, GSE2, Bears1 and WW have beat up on the bottom group.  CAHA knew the constitution of the teams and still rushed to put 2 core '05 teams into Flight1 and look how that worked out.

CAHA's goal with this system and many of these rules is all about discouraging AAA teams and many AA teams.  That this would be by design speaks for itself.  CAHA should be a neutral party rather than the Godfather bestowing its blessings on the biggest programs and meddling and discouraging the smaller clubs at every turn.  It's laughably predictable that CAHA's latest fiasco is trying to browbeat the 8th place Wave PWAA team over their participation in the most illustrious PW tournament in youth hockey, in completely needless fashion.   That's how CAHA and their little buddies in SCAHA roll -- never missing a chance to make parents angry apparently.