AAA teams for next season

[JackBender]

Saints 15U in.  Gulls 14u in.  Jr reign 16u and 18u.  No ice dogs (surprised).  No bears.  No idea if the latter 2 applied.


Nice job Saints building their program the right way.

Fully support Gulls 06 getting it... but Ice Dogs 06 got TOTALLY screwed. They should be furious with CAHA... especially with the Jr Sharks getting the rubber stamp once again.  This is after, of course, the Ice Dogs beating the Jr Sharks all three times they've played this year. And, ironically, the Ice Dogs beating the Gulls 06 team 4-2 just last week. Way to go CAHA, you've proven your bias, favoritism and utter moral corruptness once again.


Let's start the count on how many 13-16 year-old kids prematurely leave California starting this May because of this continued nonsense...


Tom. Dunderheads. All of CAHA. You should be ashamed of yourselves.     

[ABCDE]

Kudos to the Saints 05 and Gulls 06, but agree Ice Dogs 06 got screwed by CAHA.  First year team that showed they could beat Jr Sharks any time they'd meet, and the Jr Sharks keep right on putting out crap in the name of AAA (and AA and A and...  Got to keep supporting that crappy AAA team!).  At least the Ice Dogs seem to be building a good program.  They weren't happy with the direction of the 06 team, so they chose to make some tough choices in December.  Fourth A, if memory serves me correct, the Ice Dogs lost a couple of their best players to Ducks AAA due to being unhappy with that coach that was removed.  That should have made replacing the coach in December a huge plus for CAHA, trying to make their program better.  Nice job once again, CAHA, making California hockey worse by the minute.  In fact, why don't we just cut even more AAA programs or eliminate it altogether in CA?  We're losing many of the best players in this age group already anyway.  Might as well put that nail in the coffin, CAHA. 

[lcadad]

Bears only have 8 AA 06 kids now between two AA teams! (Not sure how many of those are even AAA quality players.) Bears can't field a full team without stripping other programs of their better players.The only way the Bears would even be remotely competitive at AAA is by successfully luring SEVERAL kids from either Kings or Ducks. And when they don't, the couple of decent kids at the Bears who might have entertained playing there will bolt for other programs.

Great point.  Only the Kings, Ducks and Sharks should be allowed to pull kids from other programs.   

[BladesofSteel66]

Players and parents flee and jump ship not only mid-season, but each and every year as well.  It's spoiled-brat syndrome.  Until you cure that aspect, you will always have players leaving any and every club to go play for the holy anointed Jr. Ducks/Jr. Kings AAA programs.  CAHA fears "diluting" their AAA product and will never allow more teams in LOCAL areas. 


One needs to ask, why do the Sharks perpetually suck as worst team year after year?  It is the only show in town, doesn't that mean they should get the best players in NorCal?  Are NorCal players not as good?  Is the Sharks program not as good?  Is it too far away for families to commute?  What is the answer?  If you put more AAA teams in NorCal, would the teams be better as a group?  We are arguing for that here in SoCal.  The SD area absolutely should be able to have AAA teams at each age division, so should Riverside.  Maybe if there were more options, this state would have fewer, occasional "national champions" and more solid, competitive teams (spreading out talent and encouraging more to join). 

[Fourthliner]

Bears only have 8 AA 06 kids now between two AA teams! (Not sure how many of those are even AAA quality players.) Bears can't field a full team without stripping other programs of their better players.The only way the Bears would even be remotely competitive at AAA is by successfully luring SEVERAL kids from either Kings or Ducks. And when they don't, the couple of decent kids at the Bears who might have entertained playing there will bolt for other programs.

Great point.  Only the Kings, Ducks and Sharks should be allowed to pull kids from other programs.   

A great point you clearly missed, Straw Man.

Bears have a whole bunch of AA state championships from recruiting from other programs. I never said they shouldn't. I said it would be the only way for them to be competitive at AAA next season. 

[rmackintosh]

Players and parents flee and jump ship not only mid-season, but each and every year as well.  It's spoiled-brat syndrome.  Until you cure that aspect, you will always have players leaving any and every club to go play for the holy anointed Jr. Ducks/Jr. Kings AAA programs.  CAHA fears "diluting" their AAA product and will never allow more teams in LOCAL areas. 


One needs to ask, why do the Sharks perpetually suck as worst team year after year?  It is the only show in town, doesn't that mean they should get the best players in NorCal?  Are NorCal players not as good?  Is the Sharks program not as good?  Is it too far away for families to commute?  What is the answer?  If you put more AAA teams in NorCal, would the teams be better as a group?  We are arguing for that here in SoCal.  The SD area absolutely should be able to have AAA teams at each age division, so should Riverside.  Maybe if there were more options, this state would have fewer, occasional "national champions" and more solid, competitive teams (spreading out talent and encouraging more to join).

Can't speak for every birth year...but as for the 03-05 years....there FLAT OUT is not enough quality players in the north to form a second AAA team--end of story.


GSE was going to do it a few years ago and scratched the idea due to lack of said quality players....


Are there a handful of players who go GSE instead of the Sharks, because they don't like the Sharks...yes...there are, but not enough to form a second team. Are there kids who leave because of lack of opportunity that does not involve the Sharks...again yes...but just a very minor few...

[lcadad]

A great point you clearly missed, Straw Man.

Bears have a whole bunch of AA state championships from recruiting from other programs. I never said they shouldn't. I said it would be the only way for them to be competitive at AAA next season. 

Nonsense.  You stated that CAHA should deny their application for AAA because that is the only way the Bears could roster a AAA team.  Your words.  Meanwhile, there are 3 clubs with a FRANCHISE to recruit from all the other California clubs, which of course they do because they are the only game in town for AAA.


The Bears haven't "won a whole bunch of championships by recruiting from other programs" either.  Last season, they certainly got a large group of players from the Ducks, and the same thing could be said about the team this year.  So that's one AA championship, whereas this season, they are the 2nd place AA team in the state, even with the recruiting, and another championship is far from assured.  Their '05 PWAA group was a group who developed at the club, and PT's '03 team was developed by him starting at the squirt level.  Some very good players from that '03 team ended up leaving the Bears for the Kings and Ducks AAA as a matter of fact, but we wouldn't want to get that in the way of your narrative. 

[Hockeyking]

So did the ID loose their 06 AAA for next year?

[Fourthliner]

Nonsense.  You stated that CAHA should deny their application for AAA because that is the only way the Bears could roster a AAA team. 

Nope. Read closer next time. You are conflating what I said. (Notice how I used a separate paragraph in my earlier post?) But since you're confused, allow me to be more clear. The Bears do not have enough kids currently in their program for a COMPETITIVE 06 AAA team. Do you deny that? As stated, they only have 8 playing AA this season. The only way they would be competitive nationally is by recruiting.  I never said they CAN'T recruit, did I?

The Bears haven't "won a whole bunch of championships by recruiting from other programs" either.  Last season, they certainly got a large group of players from the Ducks, and the same thing could be said about the team this year. So that's one AA championship, whereas this season, they are the 2nd place AA team in the state, even with the recruiting, and another championship is far from assured.  Their '05 PWAA group was a group who developed at the club, and PT's '03 team was developed by him starting at the squirt level.  Some very good players from that '03 team ended up leaving the Bears for the Kings and Ducks AAA as a matter of fact, but we wouldn't want to get that in the way of your narrative.

Sorry I tried to give them more credit than they were actually due. But great to know that the Bears' recruiting efforts are going well and not being inhibited by anyone!


My larger point is that So Cal can only support so many competitive AAA teams on a national level. I don't think spreading the AAA talent among even more teams is a good thing for those kids or Southern California hockey. At the 06 birth year, there are 2 teams inside the top 12. Ice Dogs AAA team is really just a very good AA team. Same for the Gulls (but are actually playing in the right division). Sorry that I'm calling a spade a spade. If you want to add an extra A to make everyone feel good, be my guest!


Yes, it sucks that there are only a few AAA teams and geographically it makes life very difficult for a lot of people. But as parents, we chose this sport. If you want lots of opportunities for your kid to play a sport at the highest level close to your house, you should have had them play baseball.


I'm fully aware that there are some AA kids who could play AAA if it weren't for location, politics, money or a whole bunch of other reasons. It's unfortunate some don't have the opportunity, but I believe if they're truly good enough and want to continue, they'll have that chance. The answer however is not watering down AAA and having several mediocre teams who get their ass kicked nationally.

[Knuckle Puck]

its pretty sad that some people think a team needs to be ranked above a certain number on mhr.com to validate the developmental benefits that the kids on that team get from participating in aaa, with the extra ice time, higher level of competition and exposure that typically provides. ice dogs are doing fine for a first year aaa program. the kids surely would benefit from a multi-year sustained program, so why does the umbrella organization have to go muck it up? if the jk and jd don't want to play anyone else, fine, change the 300% rule and go spend every other weekend flying out of town. if they'd just give one or two of the ice dogs, gulls, saints, (wave, reign, bears, titans, goldrush, whoever) a couple years to actually build up their programs, you'd see a lot fewer kids leaving the state, overall quality of the circuit would improve, and everyone would benefit.

you know what would be "good for those kids and southern california hockey"? i mean, like the *best* thing? not having dozens of kids leave home when they are 13, 14 or 15 years old, that's what.

[Strawman]

"My larger point is that So Cal can only support so many competitive AAA teams on a national level. I don't think spreading the AAA talent among even more teams is a good thing for those kids or Southern California hockey. At the 06 birth year, there are 2 teams inside the top 12. Ice Dogs AAA team is really just a very good AA team. Same for the Gulls (but are actually playing in the right division). Sorry that I'm calling a spade a spade. If you want to add an extra A to make everyone feel good, be my guest! "

If the criterion for having AAA teams is whether the state has more than 2 teams in the top 12 nationally in a given age group, then only Michigan would be allowed to have AAA teams most years.

[Fourthliner]

"My larger point is that So Cal can only support so many competitive AAA teams on a national level. I don't think spreading the AAA talent among even more teams is a good thing for those kids or Southern California hockey. At the 06 birth year, there are 2 teams inside the top 12. Ice Dogs AAA team is really just a very good AA team. Same for the Gulls (but are actually playing in the right division). Sorry that I'm calling a spade a spade. If you want to add an extra A to make everyone feel good, be my guest! "

If the criterion for having AAA teams is whether the state has more than 2 teams in the top 12 nationally in a given age group, then only Michigan would be allowed to have AAA teams most years.

Classic, Strawman. Why is reading comprehension so hard? I didn't say that to be AAA in California teams needed to be ranked inside the top 12. "My larger point is that So Cal can only support so many competitive AAA teams on a national level." That's what I said.  I then proceeded to state where California teams currently rank.

The Ice Dogs have 1 win this entire season over a team ranked higher than 54th. And that was BEFORE they lost several players!  If you think that makes them competitive nationally, great! The Sharks are 73rd. Gulls current roster would be 78th. If you think they are playing AAA hockey, that's your prerogative. We'll just have to agree to disagree. Just don't put words in my mouth.

[lcadad]

Sorry I tried to give them more credit than they were actually due. But great to know that the Bears' recruiting efforts are going well and not being inhibited by anyone!

Seems likes the opposite is true.  They won 2 recent state championships, where the teams were not the product of mass recruiting.  Even if they did have an influx of players this season and last, the PDR rules apply.

[size=0px]My larger point is that So Cal can only support so many competitive AAA teams on a national level. I don't think spreading the AAA talent among even more teams is a good thing for those kids or Southern California hockey. At the 06 birth year, there are 2 teams inside the top 12. Ice Dogs AAA team is really just a very good AA team. Same for the Gulls (but are actually playing in the right division). Sorry that I'm calling a spade a spade. If you want to add an extra A to make everyone feel good, be my guest![/size]

Gotcha.  Kids who could play AAA but don't have the opportunity need to play for Ducks, Kings or Sharks whether that be the right location, coaching staff or organization.   One size fits all, get in line, wait your turn, whatever.  Same arguments made for years.  At the end of the day, AAA hockey isn't free.  It's an expensive product people are paying for.  When people are paying for something, they should be free to pursue the situation that is best for them, and not have to conform to a highly restrictive and artificially limited market. 

[Strawman]

"My larger point is that So Cal can only support so many competitive AAA teams on a national level. I don't think spreading the AAA talent among even more teams is a good thing for those kids or Southern California hockey. At the 06 birth year, there are 2 teams inside the top 12. Ice Dogs AAA team is really just a very good AA team. Same for the Gulls (but are actually playing in the right division). Sorry that I'm calling a spade a spade. If you want to add an extra A to make everyone feel good, be my guest! "

If the criterion for having AAA teams is whether the state has more than 2 teams in the top 12 nationally in a given age group, then only Michigan would be allowed to have AAA teams most years.

Classic, Strawman. Why is reading comprehension so hard? I didn't say that to be AAA in California teams needed to be ranked inside the top 12. "My larger point is that So Cal can only support so many competitive AAA teams on a national level." That's what I said.  I then proceeded to state where California teams currently rank.

The Ice Dogs have 1 win this entire season over a team ranked higher than 54th. And that was BEFORE they lost several players!  If you think that makes them competitive nationally, great! The Sharks are 73rd. Gulls current roster would be 78th. If you think they are playing AAA hockey, that's your prerogative. We'll just have to agree to disagree. Just don't put words in my mouth.

Just pointing out logically fallacious arguments when they are presented.  If you intended to make a completely different argument than the one you made, there is an "edit" button.

[Knuckle Puck]

wtf does it matter where a team is ranked on mhr, especially one on which your kid does not play???

flipside, here's why having more aaa teams is worthwhile: go to the caha website and poke around the rosters of the '00 wildcats and '00 gulls from the 2014-15 season. that's the oldest year available on mhr. those teams were ranked 40th and 60th -- "unworthy" of aaa according to some. yet, now five years later, three kids from those teams committed to or are currently playing for ncaa d1 programs, one playing ncaa d3, one major junior (ushl), four playing junior "a" (bchl/nahl), three playing college acha level, and a half dozen still in the ncdc or usphl. and that's from the two "weakest" teams in one of the weaker recent birth years.

those kids got a bantam aaa opportunity which i believe helped their development. would all those kids have gotten to the next level without the benefit of aaa development at that age? we'll never know for sure, but reducing the # opportunities, while the number of kids participating at the bantam ages is increasing, makes no sense to me.  none. does anyone today remember or care where the bantam 00 kings or ducks "ranked"?  smh