Playing up

[TopCorns88]

Let me put this out there for those that have experience. Might you have a would be 2nd year squirt play up to PW? I know of whole teams doing in the past as well as individuals.  I know it would depend on a lot of factors as to what’s the right choice for anybody/team, but I would like some more insight here.
Anyone with experience?

[philz39]

Hey TopCorns, here is my kid’s experience having gone through this a few years ago.  My son played up in PW after two years of squirt. This was back in the days when mites could play up in squirt so he already had two years of squirt under him and could go for a third year of squirt.  He had a choice to play PWA, PWBB or SQA for the same club but different coaches. It was tough because we had just moved to the area and he didn’t know any of the three coaches or any of the kids on any of the teams as we were new to the area so it wasn’t a situation of wanting to play with friends or a certain coach.
After much thought, he decided to play up in PWA.  He was the only Squirt age kid on that team as all the others were first or second year PW age players. We left the choice for him to decide and looking back it was a good decision and he was happy with it. What we/he took from his experience was that (1) he learned the team aspect of hockey because you can’t go end to end in PW like you can in squirt so toe drags and dangling went down and his passing game went up; (2) he played with bigger kids so it toughened him up; (3) he learned that being on the small end meant he had to work harder and skate faster; (4) competition level was higher so he had to pick up his game; and (5) he played with kids who were older and more mature. Generally he is a mature kid for his age so he fit in well with his teammates and didn’t feel out of place even though he was the youngest.  Conclusion we got from this is: (1) assess your kid’s maturity - 11 and 12 year olds in a locker room talk about things a 10 year old may not know about or be comfortable with; (2) assess your kid’s skills level - if he/she is dominating at the squirt level then sure, why not play with older and bigger kids and accept the challenge; and (3) let your kid make the final decision as they will be the one playing and practicing and ultimately take responsibility for that decision in the unfortunate event it doesn’t work out.  Most importantly, let him/her have fun with it. Youth hockey is a long journey and one year at the SQ/PW level will not impact their journey in this great sport.

[lcadad]

Playing up is one of the most misapplied options available in SCAHA and CAHA, and both those organizations have been trying to find a way to curtail it. 


The rule was intended for kids who are dominant players in their age group AND the age group they will play up to.  It may not say that specifically in the rules, but that was the intention. 


I believe that the rule of thumb should be, that if you have a reasonable and honest expectation that your kid is going to dominate at PWAA, then your kid is exceptional.  There are a handful of these kids in the state at any age group.

Things got off track when entire teams started playing up to PWAA.  There isn't an entire team of squirts that is able to dominate PWAA. 

My kid played up from mite when that was still an option, and played 3 years of Squirt ending up in Squirt A.  Squirt A was a very competitive season with excellent parity, although there was one minor year team that ended up scaha champs, and a handful of other minor year players who emerged as dominant players on dominant teams.   With that said I would argue that these results are far more dependent on team factors than a lot of people want to believe.

My kid played on a AA team as a 1st year PW, that had a core of Major year kids who had returned from a championship PWA team the season prior.  The championship team the prior season had a couple of players who dominated, and this dominance trickled down to the rest of the team. They were really AA caliber kids playing on an A team.


The kids who returned had 2 of the lowest point totals for our team that season, despite their gaudy totals from the prior year, when they were already PWA and my kid and his teammates were playing Squirt A.  Is PWA a better quality of competition than Squirt A?  Possibly, but what was the end result?  Those major year kids had more problems with the move to AA than the Squirt A's who were playing in their minor year.

We have friends who played up at PWAA and PWA.  None of them felt it was a great season after the fact.  You also has to question the potential for very real developmental damage.  10-12u are developmental ages, and there's a good chance a kid will need to modulate their game in order to compete with older stronger players.  A 10 year old can easily lose confidence or become risk averse, and have their skill tree stilted trying to keep up with and compete with 12 year olds.  Hockey development isn't a sprint. 


Of my kid's birth year, most ended up on teams in the same divisions 1-3 years down the road.  It made no difference as to whether they played Squirt A or played up to Peewee unless they were doing so as part of a future AAA team.  If you are firmly on the AAA track, then you might have less of a choice in the matter.     

[Hockeycrazy]

I have a son who played on a team that moved up to play PW A. My son probably shouldn’t have played on that team from a developmental stand point. He did not have a good season and his confidence was hurt but aside from the developmental aspect he had a good time because he had two friends on the team that he still keeps in touch with. My son then proceeded to play PW AAA minor the next season with a different group although the team that moved up to play PWA did play PW AAA the following season as well. The reason being I was not happy with the coaching situation. It was not much better in PW AAA minor for my son as he was a bubble player on that team and didn’t have a good season again. With 2 tough season I ended up moving my son down to PW AA for his final year of PW. He had his best season and ended up moving up to Bantam AAA minor the following season and continued to be one of the leading scorers on his team. He also got invited to play on the CCM West select team in the Bauer tournament in Chicago in the Spring. This past season he did not play in California. We decided to move out to Michigan as he was offered to play on a vet good team out in Detroit. Again he did not have a good season. He was down on the depth chart and did not get very good shifts on the ice but I feel the experience he had playing with the caliber of players on that team was invaluable. To give you an idea of the level of players that were on his team; 2 kids went to the NTDP program and 14 of the 18 players on the team were drafted by an OHL team ( I think 2 or 3 of them signed and one of them was a top 5 pick).


My take away so far as my son’s travel hockey time is coming to a close; as parents we want the best possible experience for our kids. We fret over decisions such as should my kid play up next season? But at the end of the day we will make mistakes deciding on which team my kid should play on and that’s okay as long as your kid is enjoying the game and enjoying being around the kids on his team.


One other note of advice. My son’s experience playing up in Pee Wee was with an entire team with kids the same age as my son. If your kid is planning to move up to a team with kids a year or 2 older that definitely should be a factor. Your kids maturity level off the ice being around older kids and how comfortable he would be hanging out with a group of older kids. You have to remember you will be traveling with this group and there is a lot of time spent off the ice with the team and that part of the experience should be a good experience for your kid because that’s the part they really remember after it’s all said and done.


If you are concerned about your kid not getting good development if he stayed back and dominated in Squirt A , you shouldn’t. I have another son who played 3 seasons in Squirt ( squirt BB , squirt BB and Squirt A). He ended up being one of the top scorer in Squirt A and his team won SCAHA. He played PW AAA minor the following season and this past season he ended up playing PW AA major. I don’t feel like his development was delayed in any way playing Squirt A. We as parents put too much emphasis on development provided by the team they play on. The best advice I got regarding development was from a coach who told me real development comes from how much the kid is able to touch the puck during a game at this age ( 10.11,12 and onwards). This has been true in my experience.


I know early on my decisions were based partly on the need for my kids to be playing on the highest level teams but as time went by I realized playing at a lower level is not necessarily a bad thing. I hope this helps you in making your decision. I know it can be tough especially when you have good options to choose from.

[lcadad]

The best advice I got regarding development was from a coach who told me real development comes from how much the kid is able to touch the puck during a game at this age ( 10.11,12 and onwards). This has been true in my experience.

Great advice, and thanks for sharing your experiences.  I strongly agree with everything you brought up.  Teams can struggle with different maturity levels amongst the players even on hybrid AA and non-tier.  The lack of continuity in these hybrid teams often is the difference between the better AA teams and the weaker ones.  When you have a team that turns over half or more of the roster year over year, it doesn't lend itself to strong team play, although the players may all develop nicely over the course of a season, even if the team never gels. 

If a kid plays up with a lot of kids who are 2 years older, they will likely not play together in the future, outside of stick times.  It can be hard on a kid, especially at that age, when they make friendships with older kids, and then discover that they won't be able to play with those teammates in the future. 

I know of at least one case where a top level squirt A player (one of the leading scorers in the league as a minor year player on a championship team) lost interest in the sport after all his older teammates moved up to PW.  Within a season the kid had quit playing hockey altogether.  It was clear that competitiveness didn't factor into it.  There's a lot bigger risk of this if your kid is one of only one or 2 minor or play up kids on a team.

[HockeyGuy-99]

This a lot of really great feedback from people who have experienced this in the past.  To get a better understanding of this coming season I'm certain all of the 2010 birth year teams are moving up to PeeWee A together.  So expect 3-4 2010 PeeWee A teams. 


I really comes down to SCAHA.  With Squirt now the only age group where one can move up, it turns this division it to the least competitive age group in So Cal hockey.  It would be an outstanding division if there was a roadblock like there was in mites($$$).  Instead, it's now the college basketball version of the divisions, 1 year in before declaring for the PeeWee draft.  Not sure this will be a record year or if they keep track but I'd say it is safe to say there will be over 50 2010's in the PeeWee A division this year. 


Due to all of this a 2011 team will potentially win Squirt A this coming year and that's when you see a 2011 group dig extra deep in their pockets to jump straight into PeeWee AA to get pounded the next year. 


 

[trans4761]

Looking at those loooonnnnggg winded answers, you guys have been dying for something to talk about !.......welcome back.

[Nowhearthis]

Here's a short one.  Don't do it unless you absolutely know that the coach likes/wants your kid (and also thinks he should do it).  Otherwise ice time and development is better spent in place.
Keep in mind that the kids love the sport more when they are on the upper half of the squad.

[6607]

Wow, this far into a thread on this topic and no snarky references to "lil' Gretzkies"!

I assume we are discussing playing up from Squirt A to PWA or AA (I wouldn't recommend skipping Squirt A altogether or playing up to PW BB),

IMHO, ever since checking was removed from PW, the difference between Squirt A and PWA are in degree rather than kind.  (PWAA is another matter, and what you choose to do there is a different calculus based in part on whether there is anything resembling flighting and whether the player is on a birth year team).  Because the kids are a bit bigger, the game is somewhat faster, somewhat more physical and in general there is a little bit more team play.  There is also less pure skill.  It makes for a logical next step forward for most players who have had success at Squirt A, regardless of whether they were 9 or 10.  Looking back at my son's play  up year, most of the kids who played up into A are now AAA players, and many are among the scoring leaders.  There are also a couple of kids enjoying success at AAA who did not play up, so its not as if there is only one right path.

To me, the critical threshhold question is whether your player has already had a successful Squirt A season.  I couldn't disagree more with the "will he dominate AA" standard.  I have seen firsthand too many kids who had a successful but not dominating season at Squirt A play up to PWA, and go on each year to progressively more success.

To me eye, success would mean being one of the better players on the Squirt A team, and without social issues in the Squirt A locker room.  Is he getting good TOI?  Special teams?  Critical situations?  Leadership role?

If your player passes that threshhold, then there is the question of where he projects on the PWA team.  If its not similar to the role he had on Squirt A -- better player, good TOI, special teams, etc) then I would not put him on that team.  Its the same inquiry I would make of any new coach/team regardless of level.

Are there any yellow lights - is your player on the smaller or younger side?  Is he not as coachable?  Does he have issues maintaining focus at practice?  Is hockey not a major passion for him?

If your player was already successful at Squirt A, remember that you are re-starting the Squirt A experience.  Is repeating the same types of practices with younger kids beneficial?  Or scoring goals with habits and moves against younger kids that won't work at PW?   Are you trying to play up to keep up with another group or to make up for a lack of development at Squirt A.

Good luck to you and your player!

[BladesofSteel66]

Looking at those loooonnnnggg winded answers, you guys have been dying for something to talk about !.......welcome back.

Let these ppl be tranz! lolololz

[BladesofSteel66]

Also, wasnt GR PW AA from last year an entire team that played UP as 08s and next year were stolen.... I mean borrowed... I men adopted as the next PWAAA Jr Ducks minor 08s?


All these answers, no one talked about "hardships" or siblings.  I made my kid play up so that he was on his older bros team and we werent spread too thin as a family. 


All this talk bout whats best for your kids "development" is silly.  Does your kid play D?  Then moving up is really REALLY hard.  Does your kid play O?   Can he score?  Is he a natural goal scorer?  (I dont care about speed, seen tons of speed and kids cant score for crap.)  If your kid can score and take over a game, play em up, if not, dont waste your time being a role player. 


Goal scorers are a gift.  They need a challenge, all others need some way to feel important on the ice as the kid who scores all the goals always scores all the goals. 

[805hockey]

What bladesofsteel said.  Long and short of it, don't play up. Only exception if ur kid is scoring at will and/or several points a game, maybe.  Aside from that, let ur kid have fun and be the best for his age.  Great for confidence and love of the game.

[BladesofSteel66]

Thanks!  Ppl dont like to hear the truth.  Playing up is not what is best for developing players and their skills.  Being the best against kids your age is better than being a role player with kids 2 years older. 

[Hockey sophist]

Good post Blades of Steel along with the others who have posted on the issue of 10 y.o. playing up to PWA or PWAA.   Our son played up to PWAA as a 10 y.o. and it was probably his best experience as a youth player.   He improved and maybe had his best season as a scorer.   He got along better with older boys than his own age group. But he had the size and speed to compete.   His next best season was another PWAA with coach Shand as a 12 y.o.   That was a much better team than their record showed and provided some great memories for him and the family.  Maybe great memories are the key. 

Our experience suggests that the key issue is the quality of coaching.   Points made about being a role player v. leader are well taken.  Comments about size and physicality are also well taken.   If your kid can complete physically or is agile and quick enough to avoid contact, then go for it. At the end of the day, maybe there is no single best path for development.  My observation is that kids who have the talent to play AAA with parents who can afford it are the ones who have developed the most.  The exception may be the Bears PWAA teams.  Better coaching and better competition at practice, games, and tournaments is powerful.   That's my political observation of the day. 

[DMum]

We feel very fortunate that all of our kids were coached by number of former NHL players, turned into youth hockey coaches when their kids played on our kids teams. None of them ever played their kids up or talked about playing up, points and stats. It was always about development, learning and understanding game and having fun. Look up Dan Lucia's Speech on YouTube from about 10 years ago, it might help you see youth hockey bit differently.
[/color]Regardless where your kid plays, kid should work with a coach (es) who can develop, and eventually help him/her go where the kid wants to go, i.e. Peter T. Or someone who played and knows hockey, is well respected, well known and has good reputation in the hockey world among, both, peers and parents.[/size]
[/color]We also learned that is never too early to start planning for hockey future, there is a very good, informative group on FB, DM me if interested, need to dig it out...the bottom line is that every player is different and should have its own path.[/size]
[/color]Be safe and healthy, good luck to all![/size]