Bantam AAA

[DetroitHockeyDad]

Oh hello... I thought you might jump in here again with that axe of yours to grind. You seem to pretty interested in Norcal, but curiously negative. Perhaps it is your backyard?
I'm not sure Flow is expecting anyone to tell him exactly why any particular player has left. I couldn't say why anyway, my kid is a bit younger. If it was coaching/culture, well, the Jr Sharks have mixed it up a bit with some new Tier coaches and the prevailing culture for this coming season feels disciplined. The Jr Sharks is still developing as a program -- and shouldn't ever stop developing -- and it will take strong players and their parents choosing to be a part of it in order for it to reach potential. However, when we talk about culture, we should also talk about home culture. The player and his parents have personal cultures that need to mesh with a team and the coach. My point is that if your kid is truly special they can still reach their goals from Norcal.

[BigDuke6]

Over the last, say 3 years, how many AAA level players have left NoCal?  How does that number compare to SoCal?

[beanpot]

Whether it is the right approach or not, I would say the general strategy that many top AAA Norcal players have been aiming for is:


Play in Norcal through Peewees and Bantams (AAA or AA)
Play in Socal AAA at some point during Bantams or Midgets (Socal teams are quite accommodating for Norcal kids in terms of practices and such)
Try to get selected to prep school for high school or a top AAA team for Midgets in mid west.
Get enough exposure to get drafted to juniors and eventually D1.


It is a ridiculously long circuitous journey, and you are probably going to be in your mid 20's when you graduate with your bachelor's degree, so you have to question whether it is really worth it. But, I know a fair number of families are trying it this way. It's kind of a contagious thing. Perhaps if very few kids end up in D1, then this pattern will go away.

[#4BobbyOrr]

http://www.usahockeyntdp.com/news_article/show/654891?referral=rss&referrer_id=666974

[beanpot]

Yes, from Oakland, CA (so to speak) to Oakland, MI to get serious about hockey.


Here's a story in 2014 about another great Norcal player, Robby Jackson. The opening paragraph pretty much describes the script currently in vogue:


"NorCal Kid Robby Jackson Makes Impressive USHL Debut
As Robby Jackson rapidly developed his hockey skills in northern California, it became clear that one day he was going to need to leave home to fully reach his potential.
Jackson has hurried that process along, taking steps each of the last three seasons to arrive, at 16, as one of the top young players in the United States Hockey League.
Two seasons ago, parents Bob and Chris Jackson began commuting to southern California on weekends to take then-14-year-old Robby to play for the Los Angeles Selects Bantam AAA team.
Last season, Robby moved in with a teammate’s family during the season to play with the Los Angeles Junior Kings. His performance there led to the Chicago Steel selecting him in the USHL Draft. Jackson moved to the Midwest this season to play with the Steel in the top junior hockey league in the nation.
“We kind of knew playing hockey in California that if I wanted to pursue it seriously, eventually I would have to move away from home,” Jackson said. “I think 15 years old, my parents didn’t expect it to happen that young and, to be honest, neither did I.”
..."


http://www.usahockey.com/news_article/show/378133?referrer_id=752796

[cuthecrap]

"It is a ridiculously long circuitous journey, and you are probably going to be in your mid 20's when you graduate with your bachelor's degree, so you have to question whether it is really worth it. But, I know a fair number of families are trying it this way. It's kind of a contagious thing. Perhaps if very few kids end up in D1, then this pattern will go away."


That's right - except none of the people who have played or still playing at that level are there through that "circuitous journey" just to get their bachelor degree in mid 20s. They may deny it, but they are all there chasing "the dream". And you are right if that dream is not realized (and in many cases even if is) it's absolutely not worth it . However not going to socal and midwest at certain points of the career does not make it less circuitous and worth it. It's just the reality of CA hockey. Unless you make it - it's not worth it .

[cuthecrap]

"Reality Check nails it: if your kid is that good, he’ll get noticed. Wherever he is. "

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[ctc]
-He may get noticed. Then he will get noticed by socal coaches, explained why he needs to go down there if he didn't get that by then by himself and then after a season or two there he may move on further.
------------------------------Lots of kids are good players, but the one who can make a career out of it will be the self-motivated one who practices, practices, practices all on their own without dad making spreadsheets or cramming extra lessons. You know the kid: always at sticktime/Gretzky running his own circuit. This kid gets along with coaches and teammates, doesn’t rest on his superior laurels, and understands that there is always a next level. He has to be lucky, uninjured, and hopefully dad doesn’t screw it up for him. So that describes the tiny percent of kids where the discussion of leaving Norcal even matters at all.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[ctc]
-Oh yeah - I know that kid - in my years around the rinks and I have been and still am around a lot of them  I have yet to see one kid like that. I don't know - may be Gretzky - seriously doubt it. Kids who go to the rinks by themselves a lot of times have no idea what they are doing there. In the best case scenario (because in that case that's what makes them better the most) they try to play 3x3 hockey until some prick from reception jumps out and makes them stop because it's against the rules. No kid will come to the rink by himself every day these days. Too many distractions. Other cases: parents bring them to the rink, pay for a trainer etc. The kids who left norcal did so either because they were brought to the rink by parents, motivated by parents, paid for lessons by parents and also perhaps participated in other sports to which they were brought by parents and motivated by......
If you intend to argue with this let me tell you - you are pretty far from "in the know" . Absolutely no offense intended
Population demographics and geography/infrastructure play a huge role in the AAA struggle for Norcal. The pool of players actually is pretty small, and they are spread out. Norcal is isolated, and the roads are jammed. Despite Silicon Valley, plenty of people aren’t swimming in extra $ to drop on sports. A lot of families do make the trek to SJ for the Sharks, but for several it is simply impossible with traffic patterns. There are probably a few AAA caliber players at each birth year up northwards in Santa Rosa/Vacaville/Roseville, and another few eastwards in Stockton/Tahoe/Fresno. Those families thank their lucky stars that they have proven sires like LC and DE to guide their kids. Driving 2hrs+ for practice in SJ is out of the question, but they have great coaching closer to home, even if they don’t have enough other talented kids around to form AAA teams. They do what they can, and those guys help their kids get where they eventually need to be. But for those families within an hour drive to SJ, other factors must come into play.---------------------------------------------------------[ctc]The only people in norcal who "can afford it" tend to converge to sharks sooner rather than later. The reality is socal hockey parent crowd seems to be more affluent and willing to pay for additional development - read extra ice time and lessons. Driving to SJ is not a problem if there was value in it. Unfortunately SJ provides a very mediocre product at AAA level for a lot more money than norcal AA as a whole. The difference is hard to justify. SJ does no recruiting whatsoever enjoying the fact that they are the only AAA game in Bay Area. To the point that GSE is not even trying to compete with them. They would rather take up this AA niche and rightfully so. The result is the marginal AAA players who otherwise would have to go to sharks realize the low value and go to GSE. AAA is left with one line at best. AA becomes stronger comparatively to socal AA (where the competition even though limited lately creates a race between the AAA programs), hence the GSE success at AA level. "The Jr Sharks seem to take a lot of heat here. I’m not sure why. There may be the assumption that because they are NHL club affiliated, they should automatically be world class at the top of the charts. Give ‘em a break. They are working on it. Hockey is a growing sport in the bay area, but it isn’t huge yet. If the big boy Sharks manage to pull off a cup this year, we can expect an explosion of 07/08/09/10 kids to pick up sticks. Let’s also give the program some credit: there was a big shakeup in the Tier coaching for this coming year. The coaches and administrators are approachable. Biannual surveys, public hockey council meetings, and an open-door policy to speak your mind to the administration allows anyone with ideas to be heard. Is it perfect? Of course not. But what is? I’d imagine personalities and intrigues of parents and coaches are a big factor for those who decide they can’t abide the Jr Sharks for AAA. If there are parents on here who have spoken up and been denied assistance for their kid, that would be interesting. I plan to keep my kid in the program as long as he’s happy. Every year has improved a bit. However, the factors that will determine whether or not the boy Makes it Big in hockey are not ones that depend on the club or any one specific coach. They are either within him or they aren’t."-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[ctc]
Well that's exactly the sharks' position - rely on numbers. They do not believe in and do not motivate their coaches. There is zero competition among them/coaches for the talent. As long as the program generates the profit they are fine. As to the factors that affect whether your boy makes it or not - they all do matter. All to a different degree. Some are more important some are less. Coaches are supposed to be one of the main motivators and contributors to development. With norcal sharks culture they are not. But your position above is understandable - take it easy - no sweat. The only thing that makes me a bit unsure of that is the fact that you read and write here .

------------------
"My point is that if your kid is truly special they can still reach their goals from Norcal."
--------------
[ctc] Anybody that comes to mind who made it anywhere purely from norcal?

[pucklawyer]

Sorry for trolling in Bantam AAA but my son is still in 8th grade...graduates in 2 weeks and knows a hell of alot of 02s.

Don't know much about the Jr. Sharks or Eagles actually, but I do know that this article appeared this week on the NHL Website about a San Jose Sharks player, a former Jr. Sharks player!:

https://www.nhl.com/news/matt-tennyson-is-first-of-jr-sharks-to-play-for-san-jose/c-280907136

And in reading the Article, it is apparent to me that it really doesn't matter what youth program an athlete comes from...that professional road is so far off that it is absurd to compare Eagles, Jr. Sharks, Jr. Kings, Jr. Ducks at any youth level...etc.  And it also appears to me that by the time some kid makes an NHL debut (or almost a NHL Stanley Cup debut), barely anybody left in youth hockey even remembers him...

So enjoy the ride...to me, my son is still having a blast...moving into Midget hockey now though he will always be a Mite in my mind!!! 

[Puck Yeah]

I don't have much to add to the NorCal, SoCal discussion but I did take note of the idea the a kid must be in love with the game and practice endlessly on his own desire.  I wonder if their are any other careers that would be identified that way.  Never inspire or push or kid in math, science or history:  Let their love direct their study habits and test results.  Probably not.

I don't think a parent should be investing their own dreams and desires into their sons but once a player has expressed a desire to play high level hockey they will need some pushing and prodding at times.  I always wanted my own business and have had one for many years but there are days when I do not feel like springing out of bed and rushing into the office at 5:30 am.

My son says he wants to play college hockey and I take him at that.  There I times when he is not at his best that I give him my opinion.  Sometimes outside dryland is not appealing when it is 95 degrees out.  Usually it is enough to tell him that if he wants what he says he wants this is what is required.  There are lots of other players that will want the same position he is looking for.  Should he have a change of heart and want to become a CPA so be it.  Until he does I will remind him of the exceptionally hard work it takes to be a high level player.  I think love of the game is important, but not enough.

It might also be noted that the myth that Gretzky was all self motivation and played endlessly of his own volition is not true.  His father was a Jr player and pushed Wayne very hard.  Often to the complaint of other parents.

[cuthecrap]

"[size=0px]My son says he wants to play college hockey and I take him at that.  There I times when he is not at his best that I give him my opinion.  Sometimes outside dryland is not appealing when it is 95 degrees out.  Usually it is enough to tell him that if he wants what he says he wants this is what is required.  There are lots of other players that will want the same position he is looking for.  Should he have a change of heart and want to become a CPA so be it.  Until he does I will remind him of the exceptionally hard work it takes to be a high level player.  I think love of the game is important, but not enough.[/size][/size][size=0px]It might also be noted that the myth that Gretzky was all self motivation and played endlessly of his own volition is not true.  His father was a Jr player and pushed Wayne very hard.  Often to the complaint of other parents."


[/size]You are right. That's exactly my point. When i think of it i can probably come up with more examples of "there is a great "motivator/dad/family" behind every kid who made it" than so called "self-motivated one who practices, practices, practices all on their own without dad making spreadsheets or cramming extra lessons". In fact - I can't come up with a single one of the later.

[cuthecrap]

"And in reading the Article, it is apparent to me that it really doesn't matter what youth program an athlete comes from...that professional road is so far off that it is absurd to compare Eagles, Jr. Sharks, Jr. Kings, Jr. Ducks at any youth level...etc.  And it also appears to me that by the time some kid makes an NHL debut (or almost a NHL Stanley Cup debut), barely anybody left in youth hockey even remembers him..."
--------------------------------
Yeah, you are right - so does a man - lives, lives and then dies


It's just while you are in youth hockey - you have power to choose (that may or may not affect your final destination, but will certainly affect you along the way), while if you make it to professionals you almost don't anymore.

[DetroitHockeyDad]

Such great dialogue.


I would agree that positive, encouraging support from parents/mentors is critical for all young people in sports or academics or just about anything. Of course. Reminding a kid that he needs to work hard to meet his goals is reasonable and normal. When the support tilts to the overbearing though, well it makes a lot more sense to pressure a kid with flagging personal drive on schoolwork than it does for sports. But if sports is your poison, make sure the father-son relationship survives with love and respect intact. I would also stay with thought that because of the scarcity of jobs in pro hockey, if a kid isn't exceptionally self-motivated, maybe it is just something he enjoys an awful lot but it is not a realistic adult career choice.


There is a lot of passion here. If it could be harnessed in a positive way, just imagine the possibilities. I'm not sure how it is in Scaha, but there are youth hockey boards up here in Norcal that hold elections for vacant seats every year. They'd be sure to welcome help from a heavily invested, constructive, thoughtful individual with good ideas. The process of working with others might be challenging, but ultimately worthwhile.

[1hockeydad]

Oh hello... I thought you might jump in here again with that axe of yours to grind. You seem to pretty interested in Norcal, but curiously negative. Perhaps it is your backyard?
I'm not sure Flow is expecting anyone to tell him exactly why any particular player has left. I couldn't say why anyway, my kid is a bit younger. If it was coaching/culture, well, the Jr Sharks have mixed it up a bit with some new Tier coaches and the prevailing culture for this coming season feels disciplined. The Jr Sharks is still developing as a program -- and shouldn't ever stop developing -- and it will take strong players and their parents choosing to be a part of it in order for it to reach potential. However, when we talk about culture, we should also talk about home culture. The player and his parents have personal cultures that need to mesh with a team and the coach. My point is that if your kid is truly special they can still reach their goals from Norcal.

We are new to CA hockey.  Haven't really understood why kids have left Nor Cal to play in So Cal.  We see a couple have made an exceptional effort to become part of Jr Kings, and particularly Jr Ducks.  Seems like that is a lot of extra $$ to do that.  They still have to deal with a bunch of politics surrounding the Jr Kings for sure, and Jr Ducks.

I have seen my son struggle to get his first coaches to believe in him.  He lost ice time to a core group of kids, not because they were better, just because coach had his favorites. This disheartened him, but gained faith as he was noticed by others at various Prospect camps.  Got invites to other big tournaments and events.

I guess this goes to the thought of, if the kid is good, he will get noticed.  The hard part for parents, is to help the kid navigate the landscape here.  I  feel the clubs need to work on really working with the kids and develop strong clubs to further the positive views toward CA hockey.

[HockeyPop2297]

1hockeydad- Where did your son end up this season? It can be challenging figuring out the options as everyone has a different perception of what they want for their future Gretzky!  In the Kings world you have the 03 "Superteam" which is playing in the Major division this year... lots of travel costs as is the case with all the Major teams. The Minor teams normally don't bust the bank in travel costs.

[HockeyPop2297]

Heard that 02 Gulls AAA got rid of coach for missing first game. That was a strong team. Seems a bit of over reaction?