Corona virus

[alfirst]

[quote I'm a knuckle draggin, gun owning, conservative construction worker who's kids play football and hockey.  I'm not versed in world history of the 1300's nor do I care to be.




 And here goes big revelation - and now we know why Americans are more often than not seen abroad as arrogant and ego-centric..


 Maybe you do not care that Columbus opened the new world, or why America is even called America, or maybe you do not celebrate the holidays as they relate to events long gone.


 Without past there's no future, they say... 

[2 Cups in LA]

Area 51. Apparently NOT voting for Trump makes you a liberal.  I’m a never Trumper conservative who understands the con man in the WH.   I’m sorry you guys don’t!   Back to hockey!  Sorry I called your boy Dr. Trump.

[Hockey sophist]

alfirst, curious you say you are not interested in history but then conclude by writing "without a past there's no future."   Is there a time limit on the past that is relevant and only a geographic limit?   

As for Americans seen as arrogant abroad, is that a reaction to the "knuckle draggers" or those who know a tiny bit of history of other countries?    From over 20 years of living abroad in both European and Asian and developed and less developed countries, my observation is that it is the former plus Americans who are grossly over-weight, sort of like the physical model of our President, those who are quick to yell "we're #1," and those who brag about their gun ownership.   Most people in other countries, including day laborers, admire modesty, healthy habits, and intelligence.   But then maybe I've only be around the wrong kind of people. 
 

[alfirst]

I think your observations are totally legit.


When did I say I do not care about history - I actually DO care. I am economist by education but I learned quite a bit of history in my time and keep learning...


I was just quoting Maverick point of you - "do not know and do not care"

[Hockey sophist]

Thank you, Alfirst.   My mistake for not scrolling down far enough before responding. 

[Ice-o-Matic]

>the Chinese were performing brain surgery in the 11th century and built naval ships that could carry up to 4,000-6,000 troops in the 14th century and explored along the east coast of Africa. 
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[/color]I don't mean to be a grammar police kind of person, but these are factual matters that Hockey Sophist posted and that I am unable to find verification of.  Do you mean the process of drilling a hole in the head to relieve headaches that was used in various parts of the world a very long time ago?  I mean, so-called "brain surgery" was performed in various ancient cultures, but one wonders how successful it was?  I also can't find verification of naval ships that could carry 4-6,000 troops?  They built huge naval ships for sure, but 4-6,000 is *really* big.  Do you have links?  [/size]I’m not saying you’re def not correct, but just that I couldn’t find what you claim.
There were a lot of things ancient cultures were doing in various parts of the world, some of it that seems amazing, and some that doesn't.  There are some impressive aspects to ancient Chinese culture, but if you were trying to make the point that they were somehow superior, I dunno...there are quite a few impressive ancient cultures.  As for today, the United States has done some very bad stuff, like all countries.  Done some great stuff too.  It's my country, and it's first in my heart of all the countries.  Let's make it better.
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 As for the discussion previously about South Korea and Germany, it's worth noting that Hong Kong is a city/nation of about 7.4 million people.  They responded to the virus with population-based measures.  When the government banned masks and WHO was saying you don't need a mask, they researched and decided that masks were helpful.  So they went against the prevailing expert opinion and began wearing masks 100% across the population.  I know -- my brother-in-law was in HK at the time.  They crowd-sourced information about when and where masks would be available, and people stood in line patiently for hours to buy them.  They set up hand-sanitizing stations.  They sent teams to sanitize apartments in poor neighborhoods.  They posted maps of hot spots.  This was all population-based, not government-based.  They did not have residents screeching that it was racist to close their shared border with China.  In fact, they agitated to close the border.  They closed schools and courts.  Guess how many deaths they've had?  F. O. U. R.  [/size]

[Hockey sophist]

Sources on the claim about brain surgery and ships came from Joseph Needham's History of Science and Civilization in China parts of which I read over 50 years ago.  Needham was a very specialized China scholar based in the UK. 
According the Wikipedia, since I no access to his work today, Needham's organizing schema was:
 

• Vol. I. Introductory Orientations
• Vol. II. History of Scientific Thought
• Vol. III. Mathematics and the Sciences of the Heavens and Earth
• Vol. IV. Physics and Physical Technology
• Vol. V. Chemistry and Chemical Technology
• Vol. VI. Biology and Biological Technology
• Vol. VII. The Social Background

The claim about the size of ships was rediscovered a few years ago in Gavin Menzies, 1421: The Year China Discovered America or his earlier work 1434. I do not remember which.   Needham is a more trusted source for several reasons.

My point was directed at those who fear and hate China, it would be wise to grasp the depth of the Chinese talent and ability to compete on many fronts and that this is not just a recent thing.   

While peripheral to that issue of competing with China, read something yesterday from AnnaLee Saxenian of UC Berkeley where she claimed based on US Census data that in the year 2000, one-third of all scientists and engineering in Silicon Valley were Asian-Americans, mostly in about equal numbers from India and Taiwan.   The US is clearly #1 in high tech entrepreneurship but to some significant extent it is due to (1) immigrants and (2) Chinese and Indians.   

   

 

[5lap5hot]

This page has no officially become Nerd Central.  The lockdown has taken the toll on CalHockey to become a discussion on Chinese history from over 1000 years ago!  I would really be impressed if they created an indoor ice hockey rink.  Seriously get a grip people. You do that, you go to the box, you know. Two minutes by yourself and...you feel shame, you know. And then you get free.

[OneandDone]

Sophist, you're saying that you read this 50 years ago (and I assume you weren't 10 years old when you read it and I assume you aren't a liar or an exaggerator of truth) so you must be in your late 60s or 70s.  Point is I'm wondering why you are on these hockey boards unless you had a kid in your mid 50s?  Either that or you are just spewing out random $hit as fact as most Libs do.  There is this huge thing full of information (some fact and some BS) called the internet and you would think that because you read it 50 years ago, there would be some back up and agreement between scholars and scientist that support your random SPEW.  Did you happen to mention that Needham was "criticized for his Marxist background, his understanding of Chinese culture, and his methodology. Dr. of History Roger Hart wrote "A Post-Needham Critique" in an East Asia journal accusing Needham of attributing scientific achievements to Chinese civilization in contrast to evidence by exaggerating claims.  Some reviewers chalked this up to "the exaggerations of a lover."

You seem to place lots of admiration on the Chinese way of life yet you fail to provide any commentary on the complete and utter lack of human rights and FREEDOM in China not to mention a severe lack of workers rights and almost slave like labor.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_China

I think you should move there and you can get away from having the freedom to speak your mind. 
After Xi Jinping succeeded General Secretary of the Communist Party of China in 2012, human rights in China have become worse.

[Hockey sophist]

OneandDone:  I read these boards because my son plays ice hockey. But thanks for trying to twist that.   I occasionally post for mixed reasons, recently perhaps to see just how adults in the hockey community think.  It confirms a suspicion that the hockey community has a strong bias towards authoritarianism and easy stereotyping of "liberals" and other enemies (of the people).  It may be stronger in the hockey community than any other U.S. youth sport.  That is a puzzle.   

I've lived in a former Soviet Republic briefly and an Asian communist country for 2 years.   Preferred places to live are Canada, Europe and Down Under.  But the most hyper political place in the world, by far, is the U.S.  No place is even close.  I have no recollection of a political conversation in a 20 year period although there were thousand maybe tens of thousands of interactions with locals.  Most interesting challenge in living abroad was Tokyo center and Singapore center on under $350 per month in the late 1980s. 

One thing that stands out about foreigners is their modesty compared to people in this country.   A Japanese aphorism is "the nail that sticks up must be hammered down" and the New Zealand equivalent is "the tall poppy must be cut down."   Within limits, the American love of the nail that sticks up or the Kiwi tall poppy is charming.   In the extreme, as in the case of Trump's boasts and lies, not so much.

Thanks for the lead on Joseph Needham.   Will look at it. 

[OneandDone]

It's not a puzzle, it's called freedom and it's why people choose to live here including millions of immigrants both legal and illegal.   If you prefer all of those other places then why are you here?  Leave! It's your freedom that allows you to do that.

Your moniker is spot on minus the hockey -  Sophist: a person who reasons with clever but fallacious and deceptive arguments

[UhhhhDuhhhh]

Notice how Sophist doesn't address any of the facts like Ice-o-matic made about Hong Kong or that the reading of a book over 50 years ago must put him/her in the late 60s or early 70s. So did you read the book over 50 years ago or was that a lie?  Didn't address any of the human rights issues in China or labor problems.  Just brushes right past with a Japanese aphorism and that there was never a political conversation in over 20 years of living here and there and that Americans are horrible and everywhere else is great.

[Hockey sophist]

Notice how Sophist doesn't address any of the facts like Ice-o-matic made about Hong Kong or that the reading of a book over 50 years ago must put him/her in the late 60s or early 70s. So did you read the book over 50 years ago or was that a lie?  Didn't address any of the human rights issues in China or labor problems.  Just brushes right past with a Japanese aphorism and that there was never a political conversation in over 20 years of living here and there and that Americans are horrible and everywhere else is great.

Comments about Hong Kong or China?   HK still remains somewhat autonomous from China and that is what the mass, largely student, protests are about.  Those students would probably been seen as "liberals" relative to regime authority by your way of thinking. 

Labor problems are problematic worldwide especially during the earlier phases of a country's economic development.   The US does not have a great record historically and, arguably, today.   The meat processing workers would be a case in point.  Human rights are at risks in many countries not the least of which is China.   

China's treatment of minorities and religious minorities is most problematic.   Does that make you feel better?   Chinese expectations about human rights may be different from those in Europe or North America.   Many Chinese have done exceptionally well economically and, like Trump supporters who perceive they are doing well under his rule, have accepted the trade-off of liberties for economic well-being.   It is a tenuous deal at least in China.
 You ask if reading a book 50 or so years ago was a lie?   You project way too much or, at a minimum, have been conditioned by your Great Leader's frequent lies.  The reference was in response to a specific challenge for a source.  The book is old but it is about history.   

Have thought about my no political conversations with locals and probably heard some in Canada, Alberta but not BC or Ontario because Alberta has intense politics around oil and the environment. 

The comment projecting that "Americans are horrible and everywhere else is great" was a nice rhetorical trick.     

[CahaMama]

This page has no officially become Nerd Central.  The lockdown has taken the toll on CalHockey to become a discussion on Chinese history from over 1000 years ago!  I would really be impressed if they created an indoor ice hockey rink.  Seriously get a grip people. You do that, you go to the box, you know. Two minutes by yourself and...you feel shame, you know. And then you get free.

Seriously. I tried sending them to their rooms but they are too much to handle. God help us and please BRING BACK HOCKEY!!!!!

[alfirst]

Freedom, human rights... Such big words, slogans. Never fails to amuse me when locals are bringing that up. To exaggerate it a little - it's almost like in other place people live in cages and whenever they break - they run here...


All those big words should be defined though - what is freedom here? Nowadays, say, in the US/Canada one can't openly say anything that even remotely might be considered anti-gay, anti-feminist, not-liking a particular nation (some are still permitted). People get fired left and right for that.
Instead of mother/father - parent 1, parent 2.
Don Cherry who was allowed to talk a lot of trash was fired over some remarks that in other countries (mentioned by you) would probably fly and be considered even patriotic.
Cases from 15-20+ years old are discovered to put producer in jail - for what was considered almost normal at the time (and a lot of victims made great careers out of it back then)
Former President was giving b/jobs at the office - that almost went fine for him. Still respected guy; his wife almost became President.
Tim Thomas did not go to White House - as he was against violating human rights for extra gov.powers on surveillance etc. - he did not play afterwards.
There was a movement against income tax sometime ago - claiming tax is unconstitutional (and it looks like it is) - I think movement was destroyed and some guys ended up in prison
Smaller scale - HOA is sending letter - remove shoes from the porch (not even a "through" street/avenue, and there is a fence covering porch. Would not happen in a lot of other countries.
Slava Voynov makes a mistake - wife later pulls out complaint (pretty common thing in marriages in a lot of cultures) - he is served time in jail, sent out to Russia.
P.Kane accused of raping - slides ok on technicalities. (and yes, a lot of dumber football guys do not slide)


So - not saying that fat producer was an angel (do not get me wrong) or anything like that or that China is a world heaven - but would be interesting to understand when locals throw out those Freedom words - what do they mean exactly? What they think they have here that people do not have in other places? Or it's just immigration numbers that are supposed to prove them right.


In my opinion - primary reasons why people immigrate here are (in no particular order):


1. Safety - yes, it's safer here than in a lot of developing countries - especially south of the border all the way down
2. Social programs (and in most cases it is no problem for a foreigner to show that he has no income) - take them away and see what you will have left
3. Jobs/businesses - this is interesting. Know a lot of cases - absolute amount of the wage looks so great on paper - especially transferred into other currencies and purchasing power in those countries.[size=78%]  Then while here - all of a sudden taxes/rents/mortgages/cost of living hits and a lot of them end up living check to check or even in debt - exactly how they would be living in their countries.[/size]
   But now one has to prove the move - so brag on social media and to friends - on how much one's getting leaving the rest in shadow. And I am not talking blue collar jobs.
   Then you can't jump between the countries all your life - so you settle on something.
   Business arguably has less regulations (although labor law and things like - you can't ask potential employee if he/she's married, where they live etc. - you have to play around that) but
   cost of labor make small employees work like horses (while in other countries they would afford more employees easier). 
4. Education - one can argue that college (definitely not school) education is still better here and then you jump on reasons 1 and 3.


  So aside of big political cases - I truly highly doubt that freedom and human rights is why people are coming here. I honestly do not know what human rights my gardener is exercising here that he did not have in his country. He is probably sending some money there - which based on purchasing power of money makes sense.


 Freedom etc  - - are very subjective terms, easily manipulated by powers. But if you go against the government / social trends - be it China, US, Russia - you'll get the consequences.
 In Russian. e.g. you can make jokes on gay on TV and still be TV host. You make bad joke on Putin  - you are out. Here is the other way around. People just get adjusted to the rules to live
their lives.
 






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